• cogman@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Are people on the left saying this?

    The 2 things I’ve really not liked about biden is he

    1. Continued trump era boarder policies significantly harming refugees.

    2. Has doggedly supported israel in their current genocide campaign.

    Other wise his admin has ranged from pretty good to business as usual. 1000% better than trump, but also with some glaring problems.

    • PugJesus@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Are people on the left saying this?

      A few. A small, but very loud group online. They’re larger on the Fediverse than most places.

    • Scubus@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      2 is huge, but you forgot that he busted the railroad union which directly led to ohio burning down

    • Jaysyn@kbin.social
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      Continued trump era boarder policies significantly harming refugees.

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t his Administration forced to continue those by SCotUS?

      Has doggedly supported israel in their current genocide campaign.

      Agree, but that looks like it’s starting to turn as well.

      • Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Agree, but that looks like it’s starting to turn as well

        Honest question, where have you seen this?

        All I’ve seen is talk about possibly maybe telling them to stop genociding. Other than that it’s business as usual. The whole siding with Israel at the ICJ trial isn’t a great look

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          1 year ago

          Honest question, where have you seen this?

          In international politics, there are very few unscripted statements. What is said is an important reflection of a country’s concerns, and behind-the-scenes demands. There is a distinct contrast between statements from before the current crisis and statements since, especially compared to the unconditional bootlicking normally offered by the US State Department to Israel.

          We are at a point where support for the current course is wavering, and there is the possibility of change in our Israel policy, depending on how the opinions of the electorate continue to develop on the issue.

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        1 year ago

        Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t his Administration forced to continue those by SCotUS?

        Some, but he’s also put some effort of his own on being seen as ‘tough on the border’ due to increased migration.

        A stupid decision, but a predictable one considering the hand-wringing our population goes through every fucking time there’s a bump in scary furriners coming in to this land which our ancestors were born i-oh, wait

  • PugJesus@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    “Stopped second Cold War and arguably saved democracy in Europe”

    Let’s not get ahead of ourselves on either count.

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      yeah and im a big supporter (well relative to what I see on the internets) but obviously all of it is not attributable to him. All the same there have been more things that actually improve my quality of life over what any other president has done in my lifetime and all in one term with an adversarial congress. I loved obama but man he wasted a nice majority trying to play fair with a bunch of known cheaters.

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        I mean, Biden has the ‘bipartisanship’ disease too. But I certainly won’t pretend that he’s done nothing.

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          well you have to compromise to some degree but man obamas first term he was bending over backwards to get their input and sign off and they still fought everything he did tooth and nail. He figured it out his second term but had lost the majority at that point.

    • Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world
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      Also it’s been proven presidential policy has little to do with economic outcome and unemployment rates. Honestly any president other than Trump probably would’ve caused an economic upturn due to the unpredictability of Trump. Also the pandemic being SOMEWHAT over has more to do with unemployment than Biden.

      • snooggums@kbin.social
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        Fewer people looking for work because they realized that working a minimum job is worse than not having a job also lowers unemployment.

        And a lot of old people finally retiring.

    • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
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      He’s actually done the exact opposite when he directly refused to supply Ukraine with long range missiles early in the conflict, when they had the manpower and logistics to attack Russia directly. But instead he doomed Ukraine to a war of attrition what they can’t possibly hope to win without a serious import of soldiers (which isn’t happening). Biden handed Ukraine to Russia.

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        hindsight is 20-20, and even then i’m not sure that would have been the right choice

        back then we there were a lot of people legitimately very worried that russia would use nukes if they felt “cheated”… international diplomacy is a tricky shit show of a game. who knows what would have happened

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    1 year ago

    If you want leftists to vote for dems, despite dems pissing on leftists at every possible chance and yelling at leftists to fall in line, I’ll show you how.

    1. Point out that voting will never, ever, ever move the democrat party to the left. You cannot vote the party harder to the left.

    2. Point out that Republicans are going to remain fascists.

    3. Point out that voting third party is a spoiler vote and will result in fascists winning.

    4. Point out that the actual way to move to the left is to unionize and organize at the grassroots level, to apply bottom-up pressure on the top.

    The answer is not to pretend that Biden is anything other than a Neoliberal Capitalist. Leftists will correctly point out that Biden is still a lukewarm neoliberal maintaining the status quo, and feel further alienated by being told they should love him anyways. That just encourages voter apathy.

    • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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      My local democratic party texted me to ask me to consider running for office (I live in a very deep red state). I laugh at the idea, because I’m pretty sure that they don’t want a pro-2A anarchist and Satanist running under their name. My wife nixed the idea because she doesn’t want us to get firebombed.

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        My local democratic party texted me to ask me to consider running for office (I live in a very deep red state). I laugh at the idea, because I’m pretty sure that they don’t want a pro-2A anarchist and Satanist running under their name. My wife nixed the idea because she doesn’t want us to get firebombed.

        You should run dude. I’m dead ass serious. You can win rural districts where dickless corporate bootlicking democrats can’t.

        Here’s the secret code: Don’t run as a Democrat. Run as an independent.

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        We need people like you to run though, it’s hard to vote for it if nobody is running to represent the platform. Especially at the local level where it can make a big difference.

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          Lmmfao, they already made it clear why they couldn’t run (dems wouldn’t want them anywhere near their name), never mind that even if they did they’d never get anywhere near power. Just look at the treatment lukewarm Sanders gets for merely suggesting to tax the rich, just imagine what the propaganda machine would do with a self declared anarchist…

          You people still don’t get it, do you - the system is running as it was designed to, you never were and never will be who it works for.

    • Sunfoil@lemmy.world
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      Voting will move the party left, if people vote for that. But they don’t because leftists are a tiny, fringe political minority. That’s why Biden is in office and not Bernie.

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        1 year ago

        Can’t wait to prove you wrong at the democratic primary oh wait shit we’re not really doing one of those for some reason

        • Sunfoil@lemmy.world
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          What do you think would happen that would prove me wrong? A democratic primary is a great way to increase the chances of a Republican victory.

        • Habahnow@sh.itjust.works
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          LOL. we already had one. Bernie lost… twice I might add. I hope another person like Bernie runs after Biden’s, or Trump’s :(, 2nd term because even Bernie himself helped talk about things Democrats didn’t talk about (healthcare for all for instance).

      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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        Voting will not move the party left. The only reason the dems are in power at all, is because the vast amounts of wealth of Capitalists support them. There’s no bottom-up pressure. Even if Bernie was in office, he’d have to fight tooth and nail with the democrats to get things done, not just the Republicans.

    • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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      You can also lobby your local government. Look them up, book a 30 minute appointment, dress the part show up and make your pitch. Sure it will barely bump the needle but if normies start doing this it can start to nudge that needle a little

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      Part of the issue that drives us to point out what Biden has done is that we often get a response of “BOTH sides are fascists and exactly the same, so why should I care?”, which then must be refuted.

      Otherwise I agree entirely.

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        The answer to that kind of framing isn’t to show how good the dems are, but how bad the Republicans are. Again, the dems are not interested in appealing to leftists in any way, so again, this kind of posturing is what encourages leftist voter apathy.

        If a leftist says both sides are the same, show how much worse Republicans treat anyone that isn’t a cishet white male over the age of 35, and how legitimately dangerous they can be for our loved ones that aren’t in that category, even if they are.

        • PugJesus@kbin.social
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          If a leftist says both sides are the same, show how much worse Republicans treat anyone that isn’t a cishet white male over the age of 35, and how legitimately dangerous they can be for our loved ones that aren’t in that category, even if they are.

          But that’s the thing, when we point out that the GOP treats anyone that isn’t a cishet white male like dogshit, the inevitable refrain is that the Dems are ‘just as bad’. How are we supposed to refute that without pointing out policies of the Dems that are, quite explicitly, NOT ‘just as bad’?

          • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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            By showing that the Republicans are worse, like I said. Biden is factually enabling genocide in Gaza, yes. The answer isn’t to support Israel, of course, but to show Trump’s track record of foreign policy blunders that would lead to acceleration, as a quick example.

            If this theoretical leftist genuinely believes there’s no difference, they likely haven’t read theory, are a fed, or are only interested in virtue signaling and genuinely won’t be harmed by Republicans anyways.

            • PugJesus@kbin.social
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              By showing that the Republicans are worse, like I said.

              My point is that any relative comparison requires both positions to be demonstrated to the doubting, otherwise all that’s proven is that Republicans are bad, which we all already know.

              • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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                Show how dems are less bad, don’t frame it as “dems are good actually.” That’s my point.

    • DessertStorms@kbin.social
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      That just encourages voter apathy.

      The fact that you can say all of that yet still come back to electoral politics as anything other than a charade and a farce is mind boggling…

      Playing within the limited rules set by those in power to give the little people the illusion of choice is NEVER going to change anything of any substance.

      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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        I don’t think you read my whole point. Voting won’t bring positive change, just prevent negative change. Positive change comes from actually touching grass and unionizing, organizing, and building up bottom-up movements.

    • Zuberi 👀@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Acting like the DNC would ever move to the left (when their “left-totally-not-fascism” is bringing in that sweet sweet oil $$$$$)?

      I genuinely do not see a day where enough of the boomers are out of office to fix this shit.

      3rd party is how we end the MIC

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        Dont fall for the third Party rethoric.

        Just swallow your pride and vote for something that does NOT help the fascists win.

        Which is Biden.

      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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        I said the dems will never move to the left via electoralism, and without bottom up pressure, third party is a spearhead with no spear. You need to build up grassroots pressure from the bottom up for third party to ever be viable.

    • fidodo@lemmy.world
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      The only way to move the party to the left is to get more involved. Whining that they aren’t reaching out won’t achieve anything. A party is made up of people. Want the party to move more left and reach out further left? Be one of those people in the party and do it yourself, don’t expect others to do it for you.

      • Urist@lemmy.ml
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        No, a party is an interest group. Both major US parties act in the interest of the bourgeoisie and the US voting system is designed to make it hard to contend that. Until you guys discover representational voting on a national level, the democracy will falter.

      • Sunfoil@lemmy.world
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        So sad to see Lemmy is downvoting something like this. Really shows how clueless even the most politically opinionated are.

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        The only way to move the party to the left is to get more involved. Whining that they aren’t reaching out won’t achieve anything. A party is made up of people. Want the party to move more left and reach out further left? Be one of those people in the party and do it yourself, don’t expect others to do it for you.

        Yep. And work outside of it.

        But mostly be involved and become a leader in your community. Find ways to engage with people, identify their needs, and address them.

      • Murais@lemmy.one
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        I’m voting for him as an avowed leftist.

        Besides impeding fascism, his reforms on student loans mean I’ll be debt-free with $0 payments in 10 years. That is a material improvement of my life that I am infinitely grateful for.

        But I still think he’s a piece of shit for aiding and abetting a genocide and would vote for another candidate if I meaningfully could.

        Politics is nuanced. 🤷

        • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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          I have similar feelings. My student loans will be way easier to pay off with the new SAVE repayment plan and the IRA should help cover some well needed window replacements, and the very well needed furnace and air conditioner replacement. At a larger scale some of the bills he passed are greatly expanding rail and renewable energy both of which I greatly love to see. There’s a couple of new rail corridorsthat will connect me to friends and make it possible to go to places I want to go to by rail instead of driving so I’m very excited to have those options opening up in 10-15 years

          I didn’t get the free universal 3k schooling for my kids, nor the permanent expanded child tax credit. I didn’t get my student loan forgiveness (which at least was down to republican fuckery since the law was pretty clear in allowing it) and our tax dollars are going to a yet another oppressive regime in the middle east with the bonus of killing of thousands of kids

          Ultimately I’m not thrilled but it’s far more than I got under a Republican government and it’s far more than I actually expected under Biden

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        If a particular leftist isn’t rational enough to recognize the important of impeding the progress of fascism, at any level possible, its a vote that can probably be missed.

        If you have the power to impeded fascism in any way, and you choose not to do so, I’m don’t believe you are a leftist.

        • GilgameshCatBeard@lemmy.ca
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          But they will still call themselves leftists, which muddies the water and makes it impossible to actually tell.

        • Facebones@reddthat.com
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          In 2016, Bernie was shafted in the primary to protect capitalistic interests. When challenged in court, the DNC won under the premise that they are a private organization that can do what they want and votes don’t mean shit.

          In 2024, we’re watching Biden sidestep Congress to fund genocide in Palestine.

          Democrats are fascists, putting a pride pin in their cap doesn’t change that.

          • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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            I agree. Its incredibly tough and an almost impossible task.

            We have the choice of diet fascism, or the full blown thing.

            We can buy some time if we stick with diet fascism. The only real solution is to get involved in the political process and try and change things. I think we’re in a highly ‘activated’ community, so I’m sure, along with others, I’m not the only politically involved person here. I think beyond physical training, doing your best to set yourself up to be independent from the requirements of the social system, and engaging in the political process, there isn’t much more I would promote doing. But those are also all very important things, especially becoming involved in the political process.

            You can run as an independent. Find a rural district. Become the dog catcher (or hell, become the sheriff).

          • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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            Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

            Fascism is not just people supporting things you don’t like.

            • Facebones@reddthat.com
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              far right Certainly mid right

              authoritarian Try being left of Biden in a room full of Democrats.

              ultranationalist See above, Dems are resistant to any meaningful change because they believe USA #1. They wave their little equality flag but suggest overhauling a US system and see how quick they become conservative.

              centralized autocracy, militarism Even after a Trump presidency, we can’t reign in executive privilege because Dems are just as reliant on it. See: Biden sidestepping Congress to fund Israel, also…gestures broadly at America for militarism

              forcible suppression of opposition 3rd parties have met requirements to be included on ballots and in debates before, dems were just as quick as Repubs to move those goalposts everytime they’re met. Also, 2016 - Bernie won the primary, no he didn’t shut up also we’ll go to court to show our voters they don’t mean shit

              belief in a natural social hierarchy I mean, that’s just capitalism and Dems are all in on defending that at all costs (See above)

              subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race Go to any thread discussing politics or Democratic function IRL and mention any political/social interest other than “Not Trump” or whatever the DNC flavor of the day is and watch how quickly you get told you’re a stupid baby. (Case in point, your reply - “You don’t have real concerns you just think fascism is anything you don’t like nyahhh”)

              strong regimentation of society and the economy. Again, capitalism, but politically - Any primary winner would have been rejected for Hillary in 2016 because they just owed her one, and here we are doubling down on Biden for a second term at 81 after 50 years in politics instead of, well, anybody else at all no matter how many people tell them how weak that play is.

              Democracy is not shutting out any people supporting things you don’t like.

            • Facebones@reddthat.com
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              Give me a leftist anti-fascist candidate and I’ll vote for him. shrug “Leftists don’t want to vote for fascists OR fascists waving a pride flag so they don’t” isn’t the hot take you think it is. Every year, democrats lose voters because they refuse to go any further left than mid-right to placate the donor class and every year y’all go on these tirades about how y’all don’t need leftists anyway (as you simultaneously) blame us for Republican wins, usually in the same post.)

              If leftist votes are so critical it’d probably be a good idea to stop actively pissing on them, huh?

              • GilgameshCatBeard@lemmy.ca
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                Naah… I’m going to go ahead and piss all over them- AND YOU. And if you’d like a reason, here ya go:

                You see, you’re not holding just my democracy hostage by demanding everyone kiss your ass and give in to your single-issue demands regarding a country MOST OF YOU you know very little about, have never been to- and had no idea was in any sort of trouble prior to your decision to bandwagon this single-issue.

                No… You’re holding your own democracy hostage as well as that of others who have no idea you’re such a little baby that you’d halt the progress of an entire nation because you’re too entitled to vote for someone that has a chance to stop it.

                Enjoy the piss. You’ve earned it.

                • Facebones@reddthat.com
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                  I’m sorry, how is this different from a Trump speech, exactly? Dehumanization, outright falsehoods, false generalizations, personal insults, de-legitimization, etc.

                  Democrats are fascist, and the US isn’t a democracy. It’s a right wing Corporatocracy and we’re in such late stage capitalism everyone’s taken their hoods off and saying the quiet part out loud.

                  See ya after the downfall, bruddaman

        • Sybil@lemmy.world
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          voting for fascist Democrats doesn’t impede fascism. implying that voting for evil people is rational, and therefore refusing to vote for evil people is irrational, is pure ad hominem.

      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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        I’m a leftist and I vote for dems, at least at the federal level or if a republican actually stands a chance of winning, and it isn’t a leftist vs an incumbent dem.

        Your point is invalid.

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    Is unemployment actually down, or is this just like number fudging from folks who work 3 part time jobs?

    There’s a LOT more homeless people than I remember ever seeing before.

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      Unemployment is measured as people who are eligible and looking for work but not employed. People who have left the workforce for reasons other than getting laid off/fired (like quitting to take care of a sick family member) or people who have given up looking for work are not counted, even if they want a job. It’s measured by a CPS survey of 60,000 households, and I doubt it includes homeless people (or anyone without a permanent address).

      I’ve heaed the opposition party claim the unemployment is under-counted during the Obama, Trump, and Biden years by excluding job seekers who have given up on finding employment. That’s probably true, but if it is it has probably been pretty consistently under-counted for decades by both parties.

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        People that give up are no longer “unemployed”, which is why they aren’t counted. They wouldn’t even count in the labor force either, which is the sum of unemployed and employed people.

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          Right, and the argument that many Republicans made during the Obama years and many Democrats made during the Trump years is that they should count in the labor force, because they want to be in the labor force but have been disenfranchised. Then there’s also the people who are no longer counted because their state has pushed them off Welfare and moved them onto Disability, which has no pathway back to the workforce. It’s a very long story involving Welfare reform and a lack of job opportunities, but low unemployment and Welfare rates are greatly impacted by people who want to work but are forced into going on disability.

          • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Yeah I didn’t mean to shit on Biden or anything; just seems like we’re not quantifying this in a very meaningful way.

            It’d be like celebrating that food insecurity is at an all time low! woohoo!! …because access to affordable food is now so bad that 75% of the people dealing with food insecurity have starved to death since it was last measured.

            (numbers pulled from ass for demonstration sake)

    • theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      Unemployment is a meaningless statistic due to the weird definition. The more useful statistic is #of jobs divided by total population, which peaked in 1970 and has been declining fairly consistently ever since

    • Zuberi 👀@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      BINGO. Yes, 2-3 job having people are counted 3x :).

      Otherwise, how else would the numbers be so abysmally out of touch ;)?

      Does the 1% already know that? Yes.

    • doingthestuff@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You’re not wrong, and they don’t usually qualify for unemployment. Also “border secured” is a joke, the reason they’re catching more is because the traffic level is unprecedented. The number I keep hearing is 15 million during his presidency.

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    1 year ago

    secured the border

    What does that mean though. Concentration camps for undocumented People? Kids in cages? You think that’s a good thing? People are dying in US camps, and you’re presenting that as a ‘haha gotcha liberals they DO kill migrants’

    Fuck that.

    Also genocide. Never forget that Biden is aiding and abetting a genocide. Don’t fucking look away because he’s your guy, motherfuckers

    • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      There’s plenty to complain about, but the significant thing is that every one of those things that are complained about are specifically as bad or worse with his opposition. It would be different if any of it were “Biden aids Israel who is committing genocide, but Trump is against aid to Israel!” or “Biden keeps kids in cages at the border, but Trump would get the border handled more humanely!” Trump unequivocally supports Israel curb-stomping Palestine, and Trump made a lot of the changes that put kids in cages, and his rhetoric suggests he only plans on hitting immigrants harder.

      But I get it, there is plenty to complain about with Biden, not least of which is aiding genocide. The meme, though, is concerning the argument that Biden has done nothing while in office, which is clearly not true.

      • dasgoat@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Yup. He has put more immigrants behind bars in makeshift concentration camps than any other president. Inspirational stuff. And supporting genocide? Good old Amerikkkan values right there, some real 20th century stuff from this decrepit ghoul.

        ‘But the other side is worse’

        I’m fully aware that the other side is basically Trump, and Trump will be the end of democracy. A nightmare for everyone but a very select few. A totalitarian moron driven by the worst US politics has to offer. It will be the end of civil liberties.

        But don’t let Biden slither away with any of the shit he’s pulling.

  • 🔍🦘🛎@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    This doesn’t even mention many of the infrastructure programs that help people directly - the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, American Rescue Plan Act, WIIN, WIFIA, and probably more that I don’t know about. There is so much work in water lines and roads/bridges because of Biden.

  • ben_dover@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    “saved democracy in Europe”? i’d argue democracy works better here than in the US of A, and certainly not due to any US president

  • willis936@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Don’t forget:

    🎶 Private property’s inherently theft And neoliberal fascists are destroying the left And every politician, every cop on the street Protects the interests of the pedophilic corporate elite 🎶

  • Delta_V@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    “Low unemployment” isn’t a useful metric when the minimum wage isn’t enough to live on, and the implication that people should be grateful for “low unemployment” is insulting to people who work full time and still can’t afford food and housing.

    Its counterproductive to cite unemployment numbers when trying to rally support for current representatives, unless you can also show that wages are increasing.

    Simply referring to the number of jobs that exist feels dismissive and alienating. Instead, you’d get a stronger propaganda effect by citing the number of GOOD jobs that exist - jobs that pay a living wage.

  • fubarx@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Let’s not forget he took over in Jan. 2021. Accelerating vaccine rollout was on his watch:

    “With COVID-19 surging and vaccinations off to a slow start, President-elect Joe Biden will rapidly release most available vaccine doses to protect more people, his office said Friday, a reversal of Trump administration policies.”

    https://www.ajmc.com/view/a-timeline-of-covid-19-vaccine-developments-in-2021

    https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-ap-top-news-coronavirus-pandemic-coronavirus-vaccine-f7bb372f73a4f204ec540d39a4409e18

  • seathru@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    EO 14074 only applies to federal LEOs. Which is a very small percentage of the US police force. Definitely not “All police dept’s [sic]”.

    Just because it’s in a spongebob meme doesn’t make it true.

  • ranoss@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Could someone link me the bar graph in the bottom most panel?

    It would be nice to refer to when this is brought up by relatives.

  • doctorcrimson@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    The really wack thing is everybody already knew when Trump removed criminal only focus of ICE and the holding time limitations that it would weaken the border. We already had data about how those policies improved border security from the Obama Era, but Trump still did what he did to put children in cages for many months for no fucking reason at all.