If you want leftists to vote for dems, despite dems pissing on leftists at every possible chance and yelling at leftists to fall in line, I’ll show you how.
Point out that voting will never, ever, ever move the democrat party to the left. You cannot vote the party harder to the left.
Point out that Republicans are going to remain fascists.
Point out that voting third party is a spoiler vote and will result in fascists winning.
Point out that the actual way to move to the left is to unionize and organize at the grassroots level, to apply bottom-up pressure on the top.
The answer is not to pretend that Biden is anything other than a Neoliberal Capitalist. Leftists will correctly point out that Biden is still a lukewarm neoliberal maintaining the status quo, and feel further alienated by being told they should love him anyways. That just encourages voter apathy.
My local democratic party texted me to ask me to consider running for office (I live in a very deep red state). I laugh at the idea, because I’m pretty sure that they don’t want a pro-2A anarchist and Satanist running under their name. My wife nixed the idea because she doesn’t want us to get firebombed.
My local democratic party texted me to ask me to consider running for office (I live in a very deep red state). I laugh at the idea, because I’m pretty sure that they don’t want a pro-2A anarchist and Satanist running under their name. My wife nixed the idea because she doesn’t want us to get firebombed.
You should run dude. I’m dead ass serious. You can win rural districts where dickless corporate bootlicking democrats can’t.
Here’s the secret code: Don’t run as a Democrat. Run as an independent.
We need people like you to run though, it’s hard to vote for it if nobody is running to represent the platform. Especially at the local level where it can make a big difference.
Lmmfao, they already made it clear why they couldn’t run (dems wouldn’t want them anywhere near their name), never mind that even if they did they’d never get anywhere near power. Just look at the treatment lukewarm Sanders gets for merely suggesting to tax the rich, just imagine what the propaganda machine would do with a self declared anarchist…
You people still don’t get it, do you - the system is running as it was designed to, you never were and never will be who it works for.
Voting will move the party left, if people vote for that. But they don’t because leftists are a tiny, fringe political minority. That’s why Biden is in office and not Bernie.
LOL. we already had one. Bernie lost… twice I might add. I hope another person like Bernie runs after Biden’s, or Trump’s :(, 2nd term because even Bernie himself helped talk about things Democrats didn’t talk about (healthcare for all for instance).
Voting will not move the party left. The only reason the dems are in power at all, is because the vast amounts of wealth of Capitalists support them. There’s no bottom-up pressure. Even if Bernie was in office, he’d have to fight tooth and nail with the democrats to get things done, not just the Republicans.
Part of the issue that drives us to point out what Biden has done is that we often get a response of “BOTH sides are fascists and exactly the same, so why should I care?”, which then must be refuted.
The answer to that kind of framing isn’t to show how good the dems are, but how bad the Republicans are. Again, the dems are not interested in appealing to leftists in any way, so again, this kind of posturing is what encourages leftist voter apathy.
If a leftist says both sides are the same, show how much worse Republicans treat anyone that isn’t a cishet white male over the age of 35, and how legitimately dangerous they can be for our loved ones that aren’t in that category, even if they are.
If a leftist says both sides are the same, show how much worse Republicans treat anyone that isn’t a cishet white male over the age of 35, and how legitimately dangerous they can be for our loved ones that aren’t in that category, even if they are.
But that’s the thing, when we point out that the GOP treats anyone that isn’t a cishet white male like dogshit, the inevitable refrain is that the Dems are ‘just as bad’. How are we supposed to refute that without pointing out policies of the Dems that are, quite explicitly, NOT ‘just as bad’?
By showing that the Republicans are worse, like I said. Biden is factually enabling genocide in Gaza, yes. The answer isn’t to support Israel, of course, but to show Trump’s track record of foreign policy blunders that would lead to acceleration, as a quick example.
If this theoretical leftist genuinely believes there’s no difference, they likely haven’t read theory, are a fed, or are only interested in virtue signaling and genuinely won’t be harmed by Republicans anyways.
By showing that the Republicans are worse, like I said.
My point is that any relative comparison requires both positions to be demonstrated to the doubting, otherwise all that’s proven is that Republicans are bad, which we all already know.
You can also lobby your local government. Look them up, book a 30 minute appointment, dress the part show up and make your pitch. Sure it will barely bump the needle but if normies start doing this it can start to nudge that needle a little
The fact that you can say all of that yet still come back to electoral politics as anything other than a charade and a farce is mind boggling…
Playing within the limited rules set by those in power to give the little people the illusion of choice is NEVER going to change anything of any substance.
I don’t think you read my whole point. Voting won’t bring positive change, just prevent negative change. Positive change comes from actually touching grass and unionizing, organizing, and building up bottom-up movements.
I said the dems will never move to the left via electoralism, and without bottom up pressure, third party is a spearhead with no spear. You need to build up grassroots pressure from the bottom up for third party to ever be viable.
The only way to move the party to the left is to get more involved. Whining that they aren’t reaching out won’t achieve anything. A party is made up of people. Want the party to move more left and reach out further left? Be one of those people in the party and do it yourself, don’t expect others to do it for you.
No, a party is an interest group. Both major US parties act in the interest of the bourgeoisie and the US voting system is designed to make it hard to contend that. Until you guys discover representational voting on a national level, the democracy will falter.
The only way to move the party to the left is to get more involved. Whining that they aren’t reaching out won’t achieve anything. A party is made up of people. Want the party to move more left and reach out further left? Be one of those people in the party and do it yourself, don’t expect others to do it for you.
Yep. And work outside of it.
But mostly be involved and become a leader in your community. Find ways to engage with people, identify their needs, and address them.
Besides impeding fascism, his reforms on student loans mean I’ll be debt-free with $0 payments in 10 years. That is a material improvement of my life that I am infinitely grateful for.
But I still think he’s a piece of shit for aiding and abetting a genocide and would vote for another candidate if I meaningfully could.
I have similar feelings. My student loans will be way easier to pay off with the new SAVE repayment plan and the IRA should help cover some well needed window replacements, and the very well needed furnace and air conditioner replacement. At a larger scale some of the bills he passed are greatly expanding rail and renewable energy both of which I greatly love to see. There’s a couple of new rail corridorsthat will connect me to friends and make it possible to go to places I want to go to by rail instead of driving so I’m very excited to have those options opening up in 10-15 years
I didn’t get the free universal 3k schooling for my kids, nor the permanent expanded child tax credit. I didn’t get my student loan forgiveness (which at least was down to republican fuckery since the law was pretty clear in allowing it) and our tax dollars are going to a yet another oppressive regime in the middle east with the bonus of killing of thousands of kids
Ultimately I’m not thrilled but it’s far more than I got under a Republican government and it’s far more than I actually expected under Biden
If a particular leftist isn’t rational enough to recognize the important of impeding the progress of fascism, at any level possible, its a vote that can probably be missed.
If you have the power to impeded fascism in any way, and you choose not to do so, I’m don’t believe you are a leftist.
In 2016, Bernie was shafted in the primary to protect capitalistic interests. When challenged in court, the DNC won under the premise that they are a private organization that can do what they want and votes don’t mean shit.
In 2024, we’re watching Biden sidestep Congress to fund genocide in Palestine.
Democrats are fascists, putting a pride pin in their cap doesn’t change that.
I agree. Its incredibly tough and an almost impossible task.
We have the choice of diet fascism, or the full blown thing.
We can buy some time if we stick with diet fascism. The only real solution is to get involved in the political process and try and change things. I think we’re in a highly ‘activated’ community, so I’m sure, along with others, I’m not the only politically involved person here. I think beyond physical training, doing your best to set yourself up to be independent from the requirements of the social system, and engaging in the political process, there isn’t much more I would promote doing. But those are also all very important things, especially becoming involved in the political process.
You can run as an independent. Find a rural district. Become the dog catcher (or hell, become the sheriff).
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Fascism is not just people supporting things you don’t like.
authoritarian
Try being left of Biden in a room full of Democrats.
ultranationalist
See above, Dems are resistant to any meaningful change because they believe USA #1. They wave their little equality flag but suggest overhauling a US system and see how quick they become conservative.
centralized autocracy, militarism
Even after a Trump presidency, we can’t reign in executive privilege because Dems are just as reliant on it. See: Biden sidestepping Congress to fund Israel, also…gestures broadly at America for militarism
forcible suppression of opposition
3rd parties have met requirements to be included on ballots and in debates before, dems were just as quick as Repubs to move those goalposts everytime they’re met. Also, 2016 - Bernie won the primary, no he didn’t shut up also we’ll go to court to show our voters they don’t mean shit
belief in a natural social hierarchy
I mean, that’s just capitalism and Dems are all in on defending that at all costs (See above)
subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race
Go to any thread discussing politics or Democratic function IRL and mention any political/social interest other than “Not Trump” or whatever the DNC flavor of the day is and watch how quickly you get told you’re a stupid baby. (Case in point, your reply - “You don’t have real concerns you just think fascism is anything you don’t like nyahhh”)
strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Again, capitalism, but politically - Any primary winner would have been rejected for Hillary in 2016 because they just owed her one, and here we are doubling down on Biden for a second term at 81 after 50 years in politics instead of, well, anybody else at all no matter how many people tell them how weak that play is.
Democracy is not shutting out any people supporting things you don’t like.
Give me a leftist anti-fascist candidate and I’ll vote for him. shrug
“Leftists don’t want to vote for fascists OR fascists waving a pride flag so they don’t” isn’t the hot take you think it is. Every year, democrats lose voters because they refuse to go any further left than mid-right to placate the donor class and every year y’all go on these tirades about how y’all don’t need leftists anyway (as you simultaneously) blame us for Republican wins, usually in the same post.)
If leftist votes are so critical it’d probably be a good idea to stop actively pissing on them, huh?
Naah… I’m going to go ahead and piss all over them- AND YOU. And if you’d like a reason, here ya go:
You see, you’re not holding just my democracy hostage by demanding everyone kiss your ass and give in to your single-issue demands regarding a country MOST OF YOU you know very little about, have never been to- and had no idea was in any sort of trouble prior to your decision to bandwagon this single-issue.
No… You’re holding your own democracy hostage as well as that of others who have no idea you’re such a little baby that you’d halt the progress of an entire nation because you’re too entitled to vote for someone that has a chance to stop it.
I’m sorry, how is this different from a Trump speech, exactly? Dehumanization, outright falsehoods, false generalizations, personal insults, de-legitimization, etc.
Democrats are fascist, and the US isn’t a democracy. It’s a right wing Corporatocracy and we’re in such late stage capitalism everyone’s taken their hoods off and saying the quiet part out loud.
voting for fascist Democrats doesn’t impede fascism. implying that voting for evil people is rational, and therefore refusing to vote for evil people is irrational, is pure ad hominem.
I’m a leftist and I vote for dems, at least at the federal level or if a republican actually stands a chance of winning, and it isn’t a leftist vs an incumbent dem.
If you want leftists to vote for dems, despite dems pissing on leftists at every possible chance and yelling at leftists to fall in line, I’ll show you how.
Point out that voting will never, ever, ever move the democrat party to the left. You cannot vote the party harder to the left.
Point out that Republicans are going to remain fascists.
Point out that voting third party is a spoiler vote and will result in fascists winning.
Point out that the actual way to move to the left is to unionize and organize at the grassroots level, to apply bottom-up pressure on the top.
The answer is not to pretend that Biden is anything other than a Neoliberal Capitalist. Leftists will correctly point out that Biden is still a lukewarm neoliberal maintaining the status quo, and feel further alienated by being told they should love him anyways. That just encourages voter apathy.
My local democratic party texted me to ask me to consider running for office (I live in a very deep red state). I laugh at the idea, because I’m pretty sure that they don’t want a pro-2A anarchist and Satanist running under their name. My wife nixed the idea because she doesn’t want us to get firebombed.
You should run dude. I’m dead ass serious. You can win rural districts where dickless corporate bootlicking democrats can’t.
Here’s the secret code: Don’t run as a Democrat. Run as an independent.
What if, like, you did. Just for shits and giggles. 😂
We need people like you to run though, it’s hard to vote for it if nobody is running to represent the platform. Especially at the local level where it can make a big difference.
Lmmfao, they already made it clear why they couldn’t run (dems wouldn’t want them anywhere near their name), never mind that even if they did they’d never get anywhere near power. Just look at the treatment lukewarm Sanders gets for merely suggesting to tax the rich, just imagine what the propaganda machine would do with a self declared anarchist…
You people still don’t get it, do you - the system is running as it was designed to, you never were and never will be who it works for.
Voting will move the party left, if people vote for that. But they don’t because leftists are a tiny, fringe political minority. That’s why Biden is in office and not Bernie.
Can’t wait to prove you wrong at the democratic primary oh wait shit we’re not really doing one of those for some reason
LOL. we already had one. Bernie lost… twice I might add. I hope another person like Bernie runs after Biden’s, or Trump’s :(, 2nd term because even Bernie himself helped talk about things Democrats didn’t talk about (healthcare for all for instance).
What do you think would happen that would prove me wrong? A democratic primary is a great way to increase the chances of a Republican victory.
Voting will not move the party left. The only reason the dems are in power at all, is because the vast amounts of wealth of Capitalists support them. There’s no bottom-up pressure. Even if Bernie was in office, he’d have to fight tooth and nail with the democrats to get things done, not just the Republicans.
This attitude right here?
Exactly why the orange won.
The MIC picks, not us.
END THE MIC
Part of the issue that drives us to point out what Biden has done is that we often get a response of “BOTH sides are fascists and exactly the same, so why should I care?”, which then must be refuted.
Otherwise I agree entirely.
The answer to that kind of framing isn’t to show how good the dems are, but how bad the Republicans are. Again, the dems are not interested in appealing to leftists in any way, so again, this kind of posturing is what encourages leftist voter apathy.
If a leftist says both sides are the same, show how much worse Republicans treat anyone that isn’t a cishet white male over the age of 35, and how legitimately dangerous they can be for our loved ones that aren’t in that category, even if they are.
But that’s the thing, when we point out that the GOP treats anyone that isn’t a cishet white male like dogshit, the inevitable refrain is that the Dems are ‘just as bad’. How are we supposed to refute that without pointing out policies of the Dems that are, quite explicitly, NOT ‘just as bad’?
By showing that the Republicans are worse, like I said. Biden is factually enabling genocide in Gaza, yes. The answer isn’t to support Israel, of course, but to show Trump’s track record of foreign policy blunders that would lead to acceleration, as a quick example.
If this theoretical leftist genuinely believes there’s no difference, they likely haven’t read theory, are a fed, or are only interested in virtue signaling and genuinely won’t be harmed by Republicans anyways.
My point is that any relative comparison requires both positions to be demonstrated to the doubting, otherwise all that’s proven is that Republicans are bad, which we all already know.
Show how dems are less bad, don’t frame it as “dems are good actually.” That’s my point.
You can also lobby your local government. Look them up, book a 30 minute appointment, dress the part show up and make your pitch. Sure it will barely bump the needle but if normies start doing this it can start to nudge that needle a little
The fact that you can say all of that yet still come back to electoral politics as anything other than a charade and a farce is mind boggling…
Playing within the limited rules set by those in power to give the little people the illusion of choice is NEVER going to change anything of any substance.
I don’t think you read my whole point. Voting won’t bring positive change, just prevent negative change. Positive change comes from actually touching grass and unionizing, organizing, and building up bottom-up movements.
Acting like the DNC would ever move to the left (when their “left-totally-not-fascism” is bringing in that sweet sweet oil $$$$$)?
I genuinely do not see a day where enough of the boomers are out of office to fix this shit.
3rd party is how we end the MIC
Dont fall for the third Party rethoric.
Just swallow your pride and vote for something that does NOT help the fascists win.
Which is Biden.
🥾 😛
I said the dems will never move to the left via electoralism, and without bottom up pressure, third party is a spearhead with no spear. You need to build up grassroots pressure from the bottom up for third party to ever be viable.
The only way to move the party to the left is to get more involved. Whining that they aren’t reaching out won’t achieve anything. A party is made up of people. Want the party to move more left and reach out further left? Be one of those people in the party and do it yourself, don’t expect others to do it for you.
No, a party is an interest group. Both major US parties act in the interest of the bourgeoisie and the US voting system is designed to make it hard to contend that. Until you guys discover representational voting on a national level, the democracy will falter.
So sad to see Lemmy is downvoting something like this. Really shows how clueless even the most politically opinionated are.
Yep. And work outside of it.
But mostly be involved and become a leader in your community. Find ways to engage with people, identify their needs, and address them.
Leftists won’t vote for dems. Your point is invalid.
I’m voting for him as an avowed leftist.
Besides impeding fascism, his reforms on student loans mean I’ll be debt-free with $0 payments in 10 years. That is a material improvement of my life that I am infinitely grateful for.
But I still think he’s a piece of shit for aiding and abetting a genocide and would vote for another candidate if I meaningfully could.
Politics is nuanced. 🤷
I have similar feelings. My student loans will be way easier to pay off with the new SAVE repayment plan and the IRA should help cover some well needed window replacements, and the very well needed furnace and air conditioner replacement. At a larger scale some of the bills he passed are greatly expanding rail and renewable energy both of which I greatly love to see. There’s a couple of new rail corridorsthat will connect me to friends and make it possible to go to places I want to go to by rail instead of driving so I’m very excited to have those options opening up in 10-15 years
I didn’t get the free universal 3k schooling for my kids, nor the permanent expanded child tax credit. I didn’t get my student loan forgiveness (which at least was down to republican fuckery since the law was pretty clear in allowing it) and our tax dollars are going to a yet another oppressive regime in the middle east with the bonus of killing of thousands of kids
Ultimately I’m not thrilled but it’s far more than I got under a Republican government and it’s far more than I actually expected under Biden
If a particular leftist isn’t rational enough to recognize the important of impeding the progress of fascism, at any level possible, its a vote that can probably be missed.
If you have the power to impeded fascism in any way, and you choose not to do so, I’m don’t believe you are a leftist.
But they will still call themselves leftists, which muddies the water and makes it impossible to actually tell.
In 2016, Bernie was shafted in the primary to protect capitalistic interests. When challenged in court, the DNC won under the premise that they are a private organization that can do what they want and votes don’t mean shit.
In 2024, we’re watching Biden sidestep Congress to fund genocide in Palestine.
Democrats are fascists, putting a pride pin in their cap doesn’t change that.
I agree. Its incredibly tough and an almost impossible task.
We have the choice of diet fascism, or the full blown thing.
We can buy some time if we stick with diet fascism. The only real solution is to get involved in the political process and try and change things. I think we’re in a highly ‘activated’ community, so I’m sure, along with others, I’m not the only politically involved person here. I think beyond physical training, doing your best to set yourself up to be independent from the requirements of the social system, and engaging in the political process, there isn’t much more I would promote doing. But those are also all very important things, especially becoming involved in the political process.
You can run as an independent. Find a rural district. Become the dog catcher (or hell, become the sheriff).
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Fascism is not just people supporting things you don’t like.
Democracy is not shutting out any people supporting things you don’t like.
Thanks for illustrating my point.
Give me a leftist anti-fascist candidate and I’ll vote for him. shrug “Leftists don’t want to vote for fascists OR fascists waving a pride flag so they don’t” isn’t the hot take you think it is. Every year, democrats lose voters because they refuse to go any further left than mid-right to placate the donor class and every year y’all go on these tirades about how y’all don’t need leftists anyway (as you simultaneously) blame us for Republican wins, usually in the same post.)
If leftist votes are so critical it’d probably be a good idea to stop actively pissing on them, huh?
Naah… I’m going to go ahead and piss all over them- AND YOU. And if you’d like a reason, here ya go:
You see, you’re not holding just my democracy hostage by demanding everyone kiss your ass and give in to your single-issue demands regarding a country MOST OF YOU you know very little about, have never been to- and had no idea was in any sort of trouble prior to your decision to bandwagon this single-issue.
No… You’re holding your own democracy hostage as well as that of others who have no idea you’re such a little baby that you’d halt the progress of an entire nation because you’re too entitled to vote for someone that has a chance to stop it.
Enjoy the piss. You’ve earned it.
I’m sorry, how is this different from a Trump speech, exactly? Dehumanization, outright falsehoods, false generalizations, personal insults, de-legitimization, etc.
Democrats are fascist, and the US isn’t a democracy. It’s a right wing Corporatocracy and we’re in such late stage capitalism everyone’s taken their hoods off and saying the quiet part out loud.
See ya after the downfall, bruddaman
Cool beans. Don’t cry when you’re blamed again like you were in 2016.
voting for fascist Democrats doesn’t impede fascism. implying that voting for evil people is rational, and therefore refusing to vote for evil people is irrational, is pure ad hominem.
ROFL!
I’m a leftist and I vote for dems, at least at the federal level or if a republican actually stands a chance of winning, and it isn’t a leftist vs an incumbent dem.
Your point is invalid.
Source? You fade
deleted by creator
Only under perfect circumstances, and that almost never happens.