You say that the US was unique, but once again we have proof that tons of slaves were used to do dangerous jobs like mining for thousands of years.
Slave mortality is not the main way in which US chattel slavery is unique. In Rome, Egypt, and Greece, slavery was usually the result of conquest or debt, not skin color. Additionally, slaves often had a path towards freedom and citizenship within their respective society. I am not as familiar with the Greek and Egyptian institutions, but I know that the Romans usually kept family units together rather than breaking them up and selling them off individually.
In short, while slavery everywhere is abhorrent, slavery in the US was much more brutal and unfair than most of the other historical examples. It got even more so after the British abolished the slave trade, and slave owners in the US had less access to new slaves. They leaned much more heavily on rape on an industrial scale to create more slaves.
In mor[e] recent times. European nations cut out the middle man and just enslaved large swaths of Africa. There is nothing unique about the USA except the civil war.
Well, that’s not exactly true. The vast majority of the slave trade went into the Americas. Most, actually, went to European colonies in Central and South America. These places tended to be even more brutal than North America, as costs were lower, so plantation owners felt that working their slaves to death was more economically viable than working them almost to death for a longer period of time. Slaves in Europe were a much different story. They often served the function of valets or curiosities to be wheeled out for the guests.
There is legal slavery in the US through prisons.
Yes. A nice little loophole that the 13th amendment provides. Trust me, I’m not happy about it.
But also, we can’t deny that for most of history humans have been disgusting ghouls.
And we continue to be. But just because a not-insignificant portion of humanity are disgusting ghouls, it does not mean that all of us are. It serves humanity to point out the awfulness among us, and the awfulness that we displayed in the past.
They will paint us with the same broad brush that you currently wield.
That’s pretty sanctimonious of you, tbh. As I mentioned earlier in our conversation, we are at the apex of literacy in human history. Hell, here I am at stupid o’clock in the morning typing out my thoughts to some stranger somewhere else in the world using software specifically designed for the easy sharing of ideas. So the idea that people at some point in the nebulous future won’t be able to find examples of people from today railing against the people polluting our planet and poisoning our water and air is laughable.
I’m not painting everybody in the 1800s in the US with a broad brush as you describe. I’m saying that slavers, and the supporters of slavers, are evil motherfuckers. There were people in the 1800s who felt exactly as I currently do about it as well. Were they painting their peers with a broad brush, too?
you and I know that we are just trying to live within what is considered acceptable for the time
I think this might be the source of our disagreement, actually. You seem to be under the impression that morality is a fad that changes with time, like bellbottoms or JNCO jeans (I still don’t understand that one, btw). But that doesn’t really explain the fact that we have primary sources from the 1800s who seem to share the same morality that we’ve been discussing.
I, on the other hand, believe that people have essentially remained unchanged throughout our species’ history. I think that if you took someone from Mesopotamia, and gave him English lessons and a crash course in modern technology, it’d be difficult to pick him out of a lineup from a handful of people on this very message board. Until he slips up and refers to the internet as “talk tubes of the gods” or something, obviously.
See the difference is in how we view morality. You see things very black and white. I see things as gray which is to say human. Even Mao Zedong the greatest mass murderer in recorded history was just a normal ass dude. He just had too much power and terrible ideas. He wasn’t a literal monster. He was a human flesh and blood like you and i. Doing what he thought was right for his country and himself, because he a human.
I have lived a lot. I have outlived most of the people I grew up with. I’ve seen people be monsters and simultaneously be saints.
I have done things that I swore I never would for various reasons. I have done horrible things. I have also done great things. People aren’t either good or bad. They are just people.
I could keep arguing with you about how much we do know about slave situations from antiquity. Because we know a ton. Especially the Greeks and Roman’s wrote everything down. But we know a good bit about the Arab slave trade too.
I could post links to every African genocide committed by every European nation that existed at the time. The Belgian Congo is especially nightmarish.
The US is not unique except it fought the change.
I don’t want to continue this conversation. Just because at some point some idiot is going think I’m defending slavery and I’m not. Slavery is bad and I think we can all agree on that. But I stand by my statement. If you look at over 10000 years of history. Only in the last like 300 years have we decided as a society it’s bad.
Doing what he thought was right for his country and himself, because he [was] a human.
I’ve never said that confederate soldiers were not human. Humans are very much capable of evil, as evidenced by like all of human history. But whereas some people choose to do evil things, other people choose to not do that, and choose to condemn those who do evil things. For example: do you think that Mao chose to do evil things? Do you think he thought that riling up all of the idiot kids in the country to torture and murder China’s scholars and teachers was a morally good thing?
I have done horrible things.
Like what? Torture? Rape? Murder? Murdering on behalf of torturers and rapists? Let’s not be coy, here. We’re talking about people who fought to defend slavery, not people who said an insensitive thing to Karen in accounting once.
If you look at over 10000 years of history. Only in the last like 300 years have we decided as a society it’s bad.
And I think that it’s a leap of faith to say that. There is historical record of abolitionists even from ancient Greece. Pointing to the paucity of primary sources about abolition at the time is a flawed argument because of the lack of general literacy. Here’s a quote from Aristotle’s Politics:
For some thinkers hold the function of the master to be a definite science, and moreover think that household management, mastership, statesmanship and monarchy are the same thing, as we said at the beginning of the treatise; others however maintain that for one man to be another man’s master is contrary to nature, because it is only convention that makes the one a slave and the other a freeman and there is no difference between them by nature, and that therefore it is unjust, for it is based on force.
So you have right there some evidence at least that even back then, people thought it was evil.
I hope you have a good week friend.
Ditto. Additionally, I hope you spend some time thinking about this conversation, and potentially re-evaluating your ideas about morality.
Slave mortality is not the main way in which US chattel slavery is unique. In Rome, Egypt, and Greece, slavery was usually the result of conquest or debt, not skin color. Additionally, slaves often had a path towards freedom and citizenship within their respective society. I am not as familiar with the Greek and Egyptian institutions, but I know that the Romans usually kept family units together rather than breaking them up and selling them off individually.
In short, while slavery everywhere is abhorrent, slavery in the US was much more brutal and unfair than most of the other historical examples. It got even more so after the British abolished the slave trade, and slave owners in the US had less access to new slaves. They leaned much more heavily on rape on an industrial scale to create more slaves.
Well, that’s not exactly true. The vast majority of the slave trade went into the Americas. Most, actually, went to European colonies in Central and South America. These places tended to be even more brutal than North America, as costs were lower, so plantation owners felt that working their slaves to death was more economically viable than working them almost to death for a longer period of time. Slaves in Europe were a much different story. They often served the function of valets or curiosities to be wheeled out for the guests.
Yes. A nice little loophole that the 13th amendment provides. Trust me, I’m not happy about it.
And we continue to be. But just because a not-insignificant portion of humanity are disgusting ghouls, it does not mean that all of us are. It serves humanity to point out the awfulness among us, and the awfulness that we displayed in the past.
That’s pretty sanctimonious of you, tbh. As I mentioned earlier in our conversation, we are at the apex of literacy in human history. Hell, here I am at stupid o’clock in the morning typing out my thoughts to some stranger somewhere else in the world using software specifically designed for the easy sharing of ideas. So the idea that people at some point in the nebulous future won’t be able to find examples of people from today railing against the people polluting our planet and poisoning our water and air is laughable.
I’m not painting everybody in the 1800s in the US with a broad brush as you describe. I’m saying that slavers, and the supporters of slavers, are evil motherfuckers. There were people in the 1800s who felt exactly as I currently do about it as well. Were they painting their peers with a broad brush, too?
I think this might be the source of our disagreement, actually. You seem to be under the impression that morality is a fad that changes with time, like bellbottoms or JNCO jeans (I still don’t understand that one, btw). But that doesn’t really explain the fact that we have primary sources from the 1800s who seem to share the same morality that we’ve been discussing.
I, on the other hand, believe that people have essentially remained unchanged throughout our species’ history. I think that if you took someone from Mesopotamia, and gave him English lessons and a crash course in modern technology, it’d be difficult to pick him out of a lineup from a handful of people on this very message board. Until he slips up and refers to the internet as “talk tubes of the gods” or something, obviously.
See the difference is in how we view morality. You see things very black and white. I see things as gray which is to say human. Even Mao Zedong the greatest mass murderer in recorded history was just a normal ass dude. He just had too much power and terrible ideas. He wasn’t a literal monster. He was a human flesh and blood like you and i. Doing what he thought was right for his country and himself, because he a human.
I have lived a lot. I have outlived most of the people I grew up with. I’ve seen people be monsters and simultaneously be saints.
I have done things that I swore I never would for various reasons. I have done horrible things. I have also done great things. People aren’t either good or bad. They are just people.
I could keep arguing with you about how much we do know about slave situations from antiquity. Because we know a ton. Especially the Greeks and Roman’s wrote everything down. But we know a good bit about the Arab slave trade too.
I could post links to every African genocide committed by every European nation that existed at the time. The Belgian Congo is especially nightmarish.
The US is not unique except it fought the change.
I don’t want to continue this conversation. Just because at some point some idiot is going think I’m defending slavery and I’m not. Slavery is bad and I think we can all agree on that. But I stand by my statement. If you look at over 10000 years of history. Only in the last like 300 years have we decided as a society it’s bad.
I hope you have a good week friend.
I’ve never said that confederate soldiers were not human. Humans are very much capable of evil, as evidenced by like all of human history. But whereas some people choose to do evil things, other people choose to not do that, and choose to condemn those who do evil things. For example: do you think that Mao chose to do evil things? Do you think he thought that riling up all of the idiot kids in the country to torture and murder China’s scholars and teachers was a morally good thing?
Like what? Torture? Rape? Murder? Murdering on behalf of torturers and rapists? Let’s not be coy, here. We’re talking about people who fought to defend slavery, not people who said an insensitive thing to Karen in accounting once.
And I think that it’s a leap of faith to say that. There is historical record of abolitionists even from ancient Greece. Pointing to the paucity of primary sources about abolition at the time is a flawed argument because of the lack of general literacy. Here’s a quote from Aristotle’s Politics:
So you have right there some evidence at least that even back then, people thought it was evil.
Ditto. Additionally, I hope you spend some time thinking about this conversation, and potentially re-evaluating your ideas about morality.