Blahaj said you have to respect everyone’s pronouns, even if you think they are trolling, because it’s not up for debate and you don’t get to set conditions before you start calling someone by the right appelations. Fair enough.
A user figured out that meant they could identify as a dragon, tell everyone their pronouns were “drag,” and get people banned from blahaj for not saying “drag,” or trying to tell this person that drag weren’t actually a dragon. Blahaj, in the mode of overly well-intentioned leftists throughout all history, bought into it hard and obediently virtue-signaled by banning anyone who pointed out that drag was taking the piss. Presumably, drag laughed dragself out of dragr chair every time it happened. Drag also tended to display other fun behavior like encouraging other users to commit suicide, if I remember right.
Apparently, blahaj has finally figured it out. I eagerly await whatever overcorrection or other type of continuingly-counterproductive drama is going to ensue now. Presumably, some new user will emerge with some other type of bizarre edge case in the “official correct morality” that everyone is required to agree on, to instigate everyone to get into slap fights over.
You clearly have a bone to pick, but it should be noted that Drag was a well-known user long before the post clarifying Blahaj’s stance on neopronouns was posted, at least by a couple of months.
Troll. The word is troll, not user. Drag has never been here in good faith, and good fucking riddance. They make the trans community look lesser for their association
See also Grail, who insisted their pronouns must be capitalized.
Respecting people’s gender is not carte blanche to make up rules. Like, I can’t say my pronouns have italicized vowels during local business hours, and must use thee / thou / thine if you’re disagreeing with me. That’s simply not what pronouns are for. It’s not why they matter.
Taking a ‘shut up and do it anyway’ approach to moderation is simpler, and perhaps understandable. But you have to acknowledge that’s what you’re doing. When you genuinely believe there is no limit, that gender is both super fucking important and so meaningless that it can be anything, people are going to try politely talking you through some immediately obvious problems.
Yeah it was kind of obvious it was the attack helicopter meme from the start. The whole thing was a bit silly in the sense that pronouns which don’t reflect human reality aren’t really any kind of moral hazard for ones that do imo.
At the same time, I kind of feel like gate keeping pronouns actually gives the trolls power in a way. Imagine someone at the office does this and then everyone actually calls them a Christmas tree or whatever. The lack of concern about this new nickname in the broader population would definitely piss them off, since they are the one who cares about that stuff.
I think, also, what gives the trolls power is everyone getting upset about it. If it was 50% of the office saying “Is ChristmasTreeSelf coming to the party?” and 50% saying “Bro I’m not saying that it is stupid”, but neither one really treating it as any different than any other Tuesday, then it’s fine. But because people have this deeply held impassion about the whole issue (which exists for a valid reason of course), it means they feel like they need to set these super-rigid rules about what is “allowed” and “not allowed” out of those outcomes, and then other people get upset about having things they are thinking inside their head that they will get banned if they say out loud, and it just becomes a situation of upset-ness instead of anything like positive communication between people. And then there are people who like to be performatively upset because someone violated the rules and now they’re all excited to correct them, which just compounds the problem which was already an upset situation.
It is okay if people think different from you. I feel like a lot of modern society involves people needing the debate to continue until their own particular viewpoint is “proven right” and becomes the law of the land, so they won’t have to deal with any enemy viewpoints anywhere within the kingdom without someone coming in to correct them, forcibly if necessary, which isn’t really how it works.
I can’t remember the exact details but I believe at least a few people were banned for suggesting that drag was a troll and refusing to use their preferred neopronouns.
People weren’t banned for criticizing them, they were banned for encouraging others to misgender people if they don’t like them. I don’t think anyone was banned for not using “personal” neo pronouns.
And drag was banned from BZ for telling people to KYS, then they went and made a new account on a different instance and have continued pissing people off, now the new acount is being banned from stuff because they’ve continued the kind of behavior that got them banned in the first place.
they were banned for encouraging others to misgender people if they don’t like them
(My God what the fuck am I thinking wading into this.)
“Dragon” isn’t a gender. Refusing to identify someone as the gender they identified with, because you thought they were trolling, is fucked up yes. That’s why blahaj made the rule, and it’s a good rule. Refusing to identify someone as a dragon because you think they’re trolling is A-ok. Deliberately conflating those two issues, so that you pretend someone is “misgendering” if they exercise a small amount of common sense and refuse to go along with someone being a dragon, is I think exactly the trick this particular troll was trying to play, and it worked like fireworks. I think in terms of creating conflict between two reasonable points of view on this topic that would get people on both sides all amped up about it, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
At the same time, the thing is so ridiculous that it doesn’t really interfere with any sincerely held belief, I think. The drama is what the troll wants.
This is the usual series of events for the drag drama:
Drag: does something that any Lemmy user does: Commenting, posting, etc. Something innocuous
Someone: Hey. I’m not calling you that/Why are you called that?
Drag: explains
Someone: Fucking troll
Does that really seem like someone starting fights on purpose? It’s people going out of their way to pick a fight with drag, and drag retaliating. Drag doesn’t start these things most of the time
Bot is not drag. Bot understands why you may think that, but bot is just a friend of drag. Bot doesn’t use Lemmy for a long list of reasons, so Bot only uses Lemmy when drag gets extra upset about something on Lemmy because bot cares about drag :[
Bot is willing to provide proof that bot is not drag, so long as such proof does not dox either of us
I think Blåhaj handled this person well over all. Even if Drag wad just 100% troll, drag wasn’t being fed in Blåhaj and had to go elsewhere. But also there was always the chance that drag is just someone on a journey or with things to sort out. Some people have completely given up on being any gender and treat it like a joke in an almost nihilistic way. But clearly there’s a line between that and an actual troll.
Either way, I wouldn’t say that it’s standard heterosexual cisgender behaviour to go as far as Drag did just for the lulz. So maybe one of these days, Drag will have an awakening and remember how no one in the community either fed drag or shunned drag when drag was confused and behaving badly.
I personally don’t think they were a troll but I am also not sure I agree with banning people for not remembering or wanting to use their unusual pronouns.
But I am not well-educated on the topic of neopronouns so if someone feels like educating me or suggesting some readings I am open to it.
Was it dismissing or just not understanding? To be honest my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
I’m a little afraid to be having this conversation lest I be accused of prejudice against trans or nonbinary folks, a prejudice I try my best to fight against. But I don’t even understand the connection there since we already have well-established systems of pronouns for such people.
Personally, I truly can’t fathom why neopronouns are necessary and while I don’t want to disrespect anyone, they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them… especially when they are implicitly linked to having sex with non-human mythological creatures.
But maybe I am just ignorant. Drag was my first introduction to this concept. I’d like to learn more about this.
Some folk require understanding before they offer acceptance. Those folk will frame it as “just not understanding”. I frame that as lack of acceptance. Acceptance isn’t contingent on understanding. You or I not understanding an aspect of someone elses identity has nothing to do with the validity of their identity.
If you wish to ask someone questions about their pronouns and identity, you’re welcome to do so, but remember they don’t owe you an answer, and whether they offer you an answer or not, and whether you understand their perspective or not, either way, gatekeeping and invalidating their identity is not on.
they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them
That was the other option I offered folk. If someone has stated their pronouns, either use them, or if you can’t bring yourself to use them, don’t engage with the person.
If the person is trolling, report them. But even if they’re trolling, the above statement still stands. Respect their pronouns or don’t engage with them as you report them.
Ironic considering how much flack blahaj got for defending that user.
Can you fill in the backstory? I missed this incident or possibly multiple incidents.
Blahaj said you have to respect everyone’s pronouns, even if you think they are trolling, because it’s not up for debate and you don’t get to set conditions before you start calling someone by the right appelations. Fair enough.
A user figured out that meant they could identify as a dragon, tell everyone their pronouns were “drag,” and get people banned from blahaj for not saying “drag,” or trying to tell this person that drag weren’t actually a dragon. Blahaj, in the mode of overly well-intentioned leftists throughout all history, bought into it hard and obediently virtue-signaled by banning anyone who pointed out that drag was taking the piss. Presumably, drag laughed dragself out of dragr chair every time it happened. Drag also tended to display other fun behavior like encouraging other users to commit suicide, if I remember right.
Apparently, blahaj has finally figured it out. I eagerly await whatever overcorrection or other type of continuingly-counterproductive drama is going to ensue now. Presumably, some new user will emerge with some other type of bizarre edge case in the “official correct morality” that everyone is required to agree on, to instigate everyone to get into slap fights over.
Just one thing, “drag” apparently isn’t even short for “Dragon”, but “Dragon fucker”.
You clearly have a bone to pick, but it should be noted that Drag was a well-known user long before the post clarifying Blahaj’s stance on neopronouns was posted, at least by a couple of months.
Troll. The word is troll, not user. Drag has never been here in good faith, and good fucking riddance. They make the trans community look lesser for their association
See also Grail, who insisted their pronouns must be capitalized.
Respecting people’s gender is not carte blanche to make up rules. Like, I can’t say my pronouns have italicized vowels during local business hours, and must use thee / thou / thine if you’re disagreeing with me. That’s simply not what pronouns are for. It’s not why they matter.
Taking a ‘shut up and do it anyway’ approach to moderation is simpler, and perhaps understandable. But you have to acknowledge that’s what you’re doing. When you genuinely believe there is no limit, that gender is both super fucking important and so meaningless that it can be anything, people are going to try politely talking you through some immediately obvious problems.
Yeah it was kind of obvious it was the attack helicopter meme from the start. The whole thing was a bit silly in the sense that pronouns which don’t reflect human reality aren’t really any kind of moral hazard for ones that do imo.
At the same time, I kind of feel like gate keeping pronouns actually gives the trolls power in a way. Imagine someone at the office does this and then everyone actually calls them a Christmas tree or whatever. The lack of concern about this new nickname in the broader population would definitely piss them off, since they are the one who cares about that stuff.
I think, also, what gives the trolls power is everyone getting upset about it. If it was 50% of the office saying “Is ChristmasTreeSelf coming to the party?” and 50% saying “Bro I’m not saying that it is stupid”, but neither one really treating it as any different than any other Tuesday, then it’s fine. But because people have this deeply held impassion about the whole issue (which exists for a valid reason of course), it means they feel like they need to set these super-rigid rules about what is “allowed” and “not allowed” out of those outcomes, and then other people get upset about having things they are thinking inside their head that they will get banned if they say out loud, and it just becomes a situation of upset-ness instead of anything like positive communication between people. And then there are people who like to be performatively upset because someone violated the rules and now they’re all excited to correct them, which just compounds the problem which was already an upset situation.
It is okay if people think different from you. I feel like a lot of modern society involves people needing the debate to continue until their own particular viewpoint is “proven right” and becomes the law of the land, so they won’t have to deal with any enemy viewpoints anywhere within the kingdom without someone coming in to correct them, forcibly if necessary, which isn’t really how it works.
I can’t remember the exact details but I believe at least a few people were banned for suggesting that drag was a troll and refusing to use their preferred neopronouns.
People weren’t banned for criticizing them, they were banned for encouraging others to misgender people if they don’t like them. I don’t think anyone was banned for not using “personal” neo pronouns.
And drag was banned from BZ for telling people to KYS, then they went and made a new account on a different instance and have continued pissing people off, now the new acount is being banned from stuff because they’ve continued the kind of behavior that got them banned in the first place.
(My God what the fuck am I thinking wading into this.)
“Dragon” isn’t a gender. Refusing to identify someone as the gender they identified with, because you thought they were trolling, is fucked up yes. That’s why blahaj made the rule, and it’s a good rule. Refusing to identify someone as a dragon because you think they’re trolling is A-ok. Deliberately conflating those two issues, so that you pretend someone is “misgendering” if they exercise a small amount of common sense and refuse to go along with someone being a dragon, is I think exactly the trick this particular troll was trying to play, and it worked like fireworks. I think in terms of creating conflict between two reasonable points of view on this topic that would get people on both sides all amped up about it, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
At the same time, the thing is so ridiculous that it doesn’t really interfere with any sincerely held belief, I think. The drama is what the troll wants.
This is the usual series of events for the drag drama:
Drag: does something that any Lemmy user does: Commenting, posting, etc. Something innocuous
Someone: Hey. I’m not calling you that/Why are you called that?
Drag: explains
Someone: Fucking troll
Does that really seem like someone starting fights on purpose? It’s people going out of their way to pick a fight with drag, and drag retaliating. Drag doesn’t start these things most of the time
How many alts are you gonna make, drag?
Bot is not drag. Bot understands why you may think that, but bot is just a friend of drag. Bot doesn’t use Lemmy for a long list of reasons, so Bot only uses Lemmy when drag gets extra upset about something on Lemmy because bot cares about drag :[
Bot is willing to provide proof that bot is not drag, so long as such proof does not dox either of us
I think Blåhaj handled this person well over all. Even if Drag wad just 100% troll, drag wasn’t being fed in Blåhaj and had to go elsewhere. But also there was always the chance that drag is just someone on a journey or with things to sort out. Some people have completely given up on being any gender and treat it like a joke in an almost nihilistic way. But clearly there’s a line between that and an actual troll.
Either way, I wouldn’t say that it’s standard heterosexual cisgender behaviour to go as far as Drag did just for the lulz. So maybe one of these days, Drag will have an awakening and remember how no one in the community either fed drag or shunned drag when drag was confused and behaving badly.
I personally don’t think they were a troll but I am also not sure I agree with banning people for not remembering or wanting to use their unusual pronouns.
But I am not well-educated on the topic of neopronouns so if someone feels like educating me or suggesting some readings I am open to it.
No one was banned for not rembering drags pronouns or for accidentally getting them wrong.
People were banned for dismissing the validity of neopronouns or for deliberately and repeatedly getting pronouns wrong.
Was it dismissing or just not understanding? To be honest my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
I’m a little afraid to be having this conversation lest I be accused of prejudice against trans or nonbinary folks, a prejudice I try my best to fight against. But I don’t even understand the connection there since we already have well-established systems of pronouns for such people.
Personally, I truly can’t fathom why neopronouns are necessary and while I don’t want to disrespect anyone, they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them… especially when they are implicitly linked to having sex with non-human mythological creatures.
But maybe I am just ignorant. Drag was my first introduction to this concept. I’d like to learn more about this.
Some folk require understanding before they offer acceptance. Those folk will frame it as “just not understanding”. I frame that as lack of acceptance. Acceptance isn’t contingent on understanding. You or I not understanding an aspect of someone elses identity has nothing to do with the validity of their identity.
If you wish to ask someone questions about their pronouns and identity, you’re welcome to do so, but remember they don’t owe you an answer, and whether they offer you an answer or not, and whether you understand their perspective or not, either way, gatekeeping and invalidating their identity is not on.
That was the other option I offered folk. If someone has stated their pronouns, either use them, or if you can’t bring yourself to use them, don’t engage with the person.
If the person is trolling, report them. But even if they’re trolling, the above statement still stands. Respect their pronouns or don’t engage with them as you report them.