https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
This is a sensitive topic for some people, so please do your best to have civil discussions. Let’s do better than the average social media.
Satire should be staunchly defended. Some people may find it offensive and they can go fuck themselves.
Satirical publications are often the last free press able to publish in authoritarian governments and have often played a critical role in communication to weaken oppressive regimes.
We can all occasionally suffer jokes in bad taste in exchange for freedom of the press.
Satire should be free. Hate speech should not. People shouldn’t be killed for either. I don’t particularly cry when bigots die though.
All that said, there’s reasons some jokes just aren’t worth telling. There’s times and spaces, and for some jokes there’s neither and that’s ok.
Is making fun of a religion hate speech? Like religion is a choice to embrace so its kind of weird that it’s a protected class, despite the pilgrims fleeing it.
As in most things: it depends. Your question is too broad for an answer lacking nuance. But why did you ask?
Ohh was just musing on it from a legal perspective. It’s the one thing I can think of that’s a decision driven protected class.
It is funny how attacks on the protected classes seem to rhyme. Homosexuality is presented as being a decision to try attack it. Gender identity is presented as being a choice to try and discredit it.
Now I’ll agree that religion is a class someone can move through, from Christian to muslim, to atheist and finally Buddhist for example. But I don’t think that particularly matters. Someone can realise their sexual identity later in life, then realise they are wrong and it was something else. I don’t think that’s them making decisions, so much as learning more about themselves and the world. So how someone can move around a religious space doesn’t really interest me in terms of what it means as a protected class.
Muse away, transphobes have trodden a lot of ground if you want a head start.
Don’t really understand your last sentence there. Seems inflammatory though. Religion is something you are not born with that’s my point. It’s akin to your favorite sports team as far as I’m concerned.
“There is no gay gene, people arent born gay” it rhymes. Lately it’s being used to question trans-rights to suggest they aren’t born that way either.
All moot though, born that way, not born that way, doesn’t matter at all. It’s a way of making one protected class feel lesser than another in order to discredit them.
This was my “are we the baddies” moment, some 15 years ago btw. Someone pointed out that my anti-thiest rhetoric and the “just asking questions” I was asking were incredibly reminiscent of the other bigots. Of course, in the moment “they were wrong”, “I was right”, “yada yada yada”. But, later when I had time for some introspection, I asked myself why do anti-thiests quack like the other bigots, and more importantly why was I quacking too.
Well I’d say being anti religion is not the same. For one it’s punching up at the moment. I don’t care what you practice with yourself but growing up in a system that uses Christianity as a cudgle has really pissed me off. I also don’t agree with those morons saying homosexuality is a choice, that’s categorically false imo. To be honest I don’t feel that religion should be a protected class when I see it solely used to hurt others. I think you’re also just trying to associate me with those bigots for some weird reason and honestly I don’t appreciate it.
Doesn’t make sense to me that religious people get violent because of something you say or draw.
If it would be wrong god will punish people who do it. If god doesn’t it is not wrong. And if god doesn’t but religious people do, that is them acting against god and thinking they know better then god. That is blasphemy and will make their god hate them.
I always thought that the reason that religious extremists are so obsessed with concepts like blasphemy and hatred for other sects and religions is because their very existence plants seeds of doubt in their minds. “If my beliefs are self evident and absolutely true then how can any other beliefs possibly exist?” They may turn it around and pose it as an attack on them “They are trying to make me doubt my beliefs.”
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over
What
I said
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over
Still, doesn’t make sense
A week ago I was in line to check out and there was a young woman in a hijab. When she turned to help me I saw her entire face and hands (all I could see really) had acid burns all over.
The paradox of tolerance will never be something I struggle with once The Fall happens. Regardless for whichever religion seeks to lynch me.
once The Fall happens
What’s that?
My god are there people who think like this? Hahaha
One of the four seasons
In the words of Sam Harris: “People were murdered over cartoons. End of moral analysis.”
I’m sure there are folks here who have listened to a lot more Sam Harris than I have, but I’ve listened to several audiobooks and probably 40-50 hours of his podcast. He has some smart things to say about neuroscience and mindfulness, but my god he has some toxic, middle-school-ass takes on Islam. I haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m not surprised he said it. He’s Ben Shapiro with a PhD who makes deliberately obtuse, reductive, bad faith statements about Islam and Muslims.
For the record, I’m a white atheist. I think religion has been the source of immeasurable violence in the world. I don’t think anyone should be shot over something they say or draw, but to declare “end of moral analysis” is ignorant.
Well, he may have a point there, bit this is the same guy who promotes racial screening in airports in spite of repeated refutations of the usefulness of such measures by a security expert, so…
I’ve listened to maybe 10-15 hours of Sam Harris and I’ve never heard him say that. Can you source that?
If your group can’t take a joke, your group is a joke. Especially if it is abusive imaginary parent who according to you does everything that is wrong with the world in order to “build character” and overall rules through fear only.
Hebdo was super racist and their criticism came from a glass house. If a Nazi dies I am not losing sleep over it.
What makes you think they were super racist or Nazis?
Their cartoons were similarly racist to Nazi propaganda.
The shooting wasn’t merely about the freedom of satire. Not really. Let’s complicate the story.
The Kouachi brothers were Algerian and you can’t ignore the history of French colonialism in Algeria as the antecedent to this attack. This isn’t just about secularism and blasphemy, that’s only the surface. It’s about racism and colonialism and imperialism. Don’t think of this only as religious fanatics angry because infidels insulted the Prophet Mohammad, think of this as an oppressed racial group lashing out at a racist society and it being channeled through Islam. There’s a deeper tension here than just the religious surface.
Now, as for my opinion?
Racist satire should be illegal and that racists should be put into reeducation camps to be rehabilitated.
Also! Adventurism is bad and people should get organized into a Party, not do vigilante attacks on racists.
You sound really excited to put people into camps
Well we can’t just kill them!
Crackkkers don’t know any better, we can help them overcome their racist upbringings.
Yeah. What if we don’t take people’s right to bodily autonomy for indirectly harmful speech, or as I interpret you, beliefs they hold silently
Racism is not a right. It’s a sickness.
Sick people have rights though?
Which is why we need to help them, instead of just leaving them to suffer in their sickness until they hurt themselves or others.
That means removing them from their environment, reeducating them out of bad habits and unhealthy thought patterns, and teaching them new healthier cognitive habits. You just oppose reeducation camps because the term is yucky, but there’s nothing wrong with rehabilitation facilities. We don’t have to leave racists to suffer with their afflictions. They can be helped.
Those rehabilitation facilities already exist. Forced medical treatment. It is restricted to the most extreme cases, I think for a reason.
If you were actually concerned about people’s well-being, you’d at least be consistent about applying forced medical treatment to anybody who has some issues that cause harm to others. Sending alcoholics, narcissists, drug addicts, workplace bullies, etc. to camps? Pretty extreme but at least consistent.
But you are not. You just want an excuse to send people to camps. Typical red fash stuff.
The Kouachi brothers were Algerian
They were both French, born in Paris. Their parents were Algerian.
You’re not saying “but where are they really from” are you?..
And why were their parents in France and not Algeria? Why did they have to leave their homes to raise their children in France?
Because of French colonialism in Algeria! Because their country was underdeveloped and used as a source of cheap labor and resources and subjected to the horrors of a military occupation by a colonial power! You can’t just isolate immigration in a vacuum without analyzing the impacts of imperialism and colonialism on migration.
The brothers went to Syria to train and attempt to fight in Iraq against the Americans. They stated their motivation was the abuse carried out at Abu Ghraib by the Americans.
Then they trained in Yemen
They were eventually assoiated with al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula
They expressed a desire to kill Jews, Chérif Kouachi specifically stating that he wanted to firebomb Jews
Targetting Jews is what their accomplice, Amedy Coulibaly, actually did attacking a Jewish supermarket
Kouachi stated his motivation was “avenging the prophet Muhammad” (for the cartoon) and retaliating against the “killing women and children in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan”
Jews… America… a media company. Not the French state. They have never cited Algeria as their motivation. You really shouldn’t be erasing their identity and narrative and substituting your own. That’s quite colonial of you…
sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercacher_kosher_supermarket_siege
https://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/13/world/kouachi-brothers-radicalization/index.html
I didn’t say Algeria was the motivation, I said it was the antecedent. French colonialism is the reason their parents had to leave their homes and the reason that these men were French in the first place. It’s not like this is ancient history.
Now as for hatred for Jews and America, all that too ties back to imperialism and neocolonialism. Their hatred for Jews is obviously tied to the fact that there’s a Jewish-supremacist ethnostate in the middle east (that France supports) and which touts itself as representative of all Jews. Sadly, this results in blowback onto Jewish people who are not Israeli.
But they’re still French so still pay their taxes to France which sends weapons to Israel. It’s only very recently that France decided to stop sending weapons to Israel, but when these attacks happened France was fully complicit in Israeli settler-colonialism.
And most notably, France is a key American ally. America creates blowback that falls onto its allies.
Blowback is complicated, but it’s undeniably the root cause. They even said so! My point: we have to analyze all of the context surrounding the attack. “French” Algeria, the War on Terror, Israeli settler-colonialism, etc etc it’s all connected.
You are the one determined to erase their motivations by just making it about cartoons. It’s not.
Go read up on what the French did in Algeria and you might understand why some Algerians might want to kill French racists.
Could you provide a source describing how the attack was related to colonialism rather than blasphemy against the prophet of Islam?
What makes you think Charlie’s intentions are racism rather than mocking extremists?Edit: added second question.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/14/laffaire-charlie-hebdo-and-western-colonialism/
These men were fighting with Western-backed rebels in Syria to overthrow Assad, which is where they learned to kill.
And it’s important to note their Algerian heritage because France occupied Algeria as recently as 1962 when it gained independence from France. Their parents didn’t immigrate from Algeria to France in a vacuum.
This was blowback.
Consistently, you always choose the repressive side as you did with China in that thread about lgbt erotica authors being arrested. As a queer socialist, this is depressive to see.
Imagine not believing racists should be repressed. 🙄
Also, in case you forgot, all I did in that thread was point out that China bans all erotica and that it isn’t specifically targeting queer authors. I just wanted to clarify something that wasn’t clear in the title. I never justified China’s outdated laws about erotic literature.
