Meanwhile Russia is famously more corrupt than Ukraine, has been since long before Maidan

That’s a lie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
2020-2023 - Russia is more corrupt
2012-2019 - more or less the same, sometimes Russia wins sometimes Ukraine
1995-2012 - Ukraine is more corrupt

attempted to pervert Ukraine’s elections to install a corrupt leader under their control

Are you talking about 2010 elections?

After the second round of the election international observers and the OSCE called the election transparent and honest

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#International_observers
You’re either lying again, or using the typical western-liberal “it’s only democracy if our candidate winds” (or, well, both).

Nice disinformation bro

No, why would they? Haven’t you heard that Russia is literally Mordor filled with orcs, while Ukraine (especially under Zelensky’s rule) is a bastion of democracy? I don’t think that western governments/media and especially Zelensky (who doesn’t benefit at all from this war and is the main victim here) would lie to anyone about that!

Now that we got sarcasm out of the way…

If you want to form an informed opinion about it you can start by looking at the map of 2010 elections, where there was basically two candidates, a pro-EU one and pro-Russian one. Take a look at the distribution and percentage of people voting for a particular candidate in particular regions. Then look into the coup that happened in 2014, which powers participated in it (you can listen to their leaked conversations as well), then remember the electoral map you just looked at, and maybe make some conclusions.

That’s “before the invasion” the part.

“After the invasion” part is of course less clear, but again if you want to start making an informed opinion you can start by looking, for example, at the level of freedom people located on Ukraine controlled territories have and that of people on annexed by Russia territories (or just “Russia proper” territories). Who is free to leave at any moment and go anywhere, and who is forbidden to leave the country because the government needs cannon fodder? Who is encouraged to volunteer to join the army with monetary incentives, and who is kidnapped from the street, beaten, held in basements for days and forcefully sent to the meat grinder? Again, you can try to make some conclusions from that, and maybe speculate whether it’s possible that people from one of those groups may want to join the other one.

As a finishing touch - I am Ukrainian, I was born there, and lived most of my life there. Thankfully, I left the country before the war started. If I visit Ukraine - I will most likely be dead in a matter of months (after being kidnapped and beaten by the brave TCC guys). If I visit Russia - I will at most face more scrutiny at the border due to the war. I’m not from an eastern region of Ukraine and I never wanted it to become a part of Russia. You can try to guess which options are preferrable for me currently.

So, we started with “no negotiations until we re-take Crimea and Donbas / go back to 2014 borders”, now we are on “no negotiations until we re-take Kherson and Zaporizhzhia / go back to 2022 borders”, and the next step will be “no negotiations until we get Dnipropetrvosk back / go back to 2025 borders”? :(

Troop shortage and unwillingness to fight? In Ukraine? I don’t see a single reason why this might be the case. How can people whom Zelensky treats as his slaves, who are forbidden from leaving the country, kidnapped off the streets, beaten (sometimes to death), held in basements for multiple days and then get sent to the meatgrinder where they are either killed/wounded or tortured by their commanders, how can they be unwilling to fight for Zelensky’s regime?? Sounds like Russian propaganda if you ask me, no way this is true.

“A Trump imposed deal would be worse” - I can’t imagine what (realistically) can be worse than living under Zelensky’s regime.
What is Putin going to do? Put even more effort into making sure people cannot escape Ukraine? Start kidnapping even more people off the street? Or do it even more brutally then what happens now? Beat and torture even more people?
Anything is better than Zelensky’s regime…

No, those are on Putin.

The west does not support Putin (at least not nearly in the same capacity they support Zelensky) though, so at least there is that. And while I’m sorry for the Russians as well, I think you may understand that I’m more worried about Zelensky trying to exterminate me and people close to me than I’m about what Putin does to Russians.

So in your mind Zelensky is killing those people. Not the invading army?

Yes, obviously. If he did not kidnap people off the streets (after forbidding people to leave the country so that there is more cannon fodder) and forcibly sent to the frontlines, those people would be alive, wouldn’t they?

The “invading army” also killed many people of course (the civilians who got hit by rockets/drones) so of course the war should be finished as soon as possible (but this is not in Zelensky’s interest because he will lose power and all those billions of dollars), but the number is just incomparable to the amount of people Zelensky has killed and terrorized (and continues to kill and terrorize).

And you did not provide sources to claim that Zelensky is a “sadistic mass murderer” You provided two separate incidents that are being investigated.

So, forbidding millions of people to leave the country so that they can be kidnapped off a street and then sent to die does not fit your definition of “sadistic mass murderer”?
Well, then I can only wish you to one day have such a glorious leader in your country as well, that will do to you and your family the same absolutely not horrific things that you support him doing to Ukrainians.

Do you support Putin

No

Why doesn’t it make sense? For the same reason the normal person doesn’t enjoy torturing pets.

Yeah that’s quite dense. I literally gave you proof of tortures by Zelensky’s regime, Ukrainian parliament members are admitting that there are more of such cases, all the kidnapping beatings deaths and so on, and your argument is “well what you are saying doesn’t make sense because a normal person wouldn’t do that”. He is not a normal person. He is sadistic mass murderer.

You sure are a “potential victim” of Ukrainian drafting. That’s why you spend your hours browsing the tankie instance of Lemmy. Yep. Yep.

Again - why doesn’t it make sense? :)

If you really believe that Zelensky is committing “atrocities”, then surely you are in favor of removing the one reason why Zelensky is committing those “atrocities”. And also the reson he uses to “cheekily” stay in office by the by.

What kind of fucked up logic is that?? “Yeah that guy tortures, kidnaps, murders and so on - instead of removing him let’s try to figure out what we can do so that he might stop”. Woah.
If some guy kills your entire family - I propose we do the same as you propose here - not put him into jail or anything, but you know - talk with him why did he do it and ask him not to do that anymore.

Libs love Ukrainians until they meet one who doesn’t agree with their narrative

So far very few libs even admitted that I might be a Ukrainian, CNN (or whatever else) told them that everybody not glorifying Zelensky’s atrocities is either a Russian bot or Russian propagandist, no third options here.

Why do others have to die for what you believe in?

Why not?
I mean the only answer here is “because empathy”, but Ukrainians are not part of their " tribe", so no empathy for us… Murder as many of us as they can, and then write in the history books that it was Russia so that they can continue claiming they are the good ones :(

Yes comrade, I too beg my neighbouring country to invade me, so I can stay in power. I thank them every time I’m attending a funeral of one of my soldiers.

So why exactly doesn’t it make sense? :)

I just love how at the start of your meaningless ramble you were “concerned” for Ukrainian victims. But as soon as it gets pointed out who really has the power to stop this invasion you feign ignorance… Or you’re really just that dense, that’s a possibility too of course.

Yeah, you are quite dense :)

I am concerned for Ukrainian victims, because me my friends and my family are potentially one of them.

But as soon as it gets pointed out who really has the power to stop this invasion you feign ignorance…

What ignorance? What Putin’s/Russia’s ability to end the war has to do with Zelensky’s commiting atrocities on Ukrainians?

I’m starting to think those people are just sadists wishing to see as many Ukrainians and Russians dead as possible…

They don’t even refute anything, if you say anything remotely critical of Ukraine/Zelensky, you are just declared Russian bot/propagandist and your opinion doesn’t matter. Wow.

We can support people not wanting to be invaded, and not support bad things that they do as well.

So, you don’t support Zelensky’s kidnapping tortures and murders? Well, that’s somdthing already :)

And yet, as long as you support his regime, he will continue to do this.

Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted.

Ah, so if he’s not doing the atrocities personally then it’s all ok? Gotcha :)

What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.

I hope you aren’t implying that Zelensky is a victim? For him this war is literally the best thing that could ever happen to him - he gets to rule the xountry for as long as he wish, reveives billions from the west, travels around thr world telling stories about how hr protects the democracy, etc. The victims are Ukrainians whom he (well, his rehime if you want to differentiate those things for some reason…) confines, kidnaps, tortures and murders.

There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.

So?

Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple “to the last Ukrainian” kind of thing :/

I’m sure you can find the strength within to scroll up

So no examples, ok that’s expected :)

I know you’re just trying to waste my time.

You are either trolling or I fallen victim to talking to an LLM again… “but you seem very willing to pretend that Russia isn’t doing anything wrong” never did that. Anyway, as you’re not willing to back your words with any proofs, I won’t be wasting your time anymore

Every single time you’ve assigned blame for things Russia did on Ukraine

Well, name one example pretty please :)

All of the things Zelensky did is because he chose to do it. Every kidnapping, beating, death, torture done by his regime is his (and his supporters) responsibility, noone else’s.

Show me where I either denied Ukraine was doing these things, or celebrated them happening, because that sure didn’t happen.

but you aren’t entitled to pretend that Russia is magically absolved of anything bad they’ve done because WEST BAD.

Well, let me play an UNO reverse card on you and ask where did I “pretend that Russia is magically absolved of anything bad they’ve done” :)

It’s so fucked up that every time I point out Zelensky’s atrocities and that he (with western support) terrorizes, kidnaps, tortures & murders people - someone accuses me of supporting Russia. First does not imply second.

Ah, so you meant

Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days.

So here is about kidnappings, there is now a first hand source now actually: https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html

beating - well that goes without saying when you are kidnapping someone, it’s hard to do that without beating, but if that gets you off - you can find something here https://uadraftmuseum.ch/incidents

some stories about holding people in the basements: https://goloskarpat.info/society/66f2bfed03425/ https://informator.ua/uk/tck-husta-utrimuye-turistiv-iz-bronyuvannyam-u-zhahliviy-pidzemniy-tyurmi-spovid-chinovnika-z-dnipra

and to make sure to get you off, here is about gasing and trying to set people’s vehicle on fire: https://unn.ua/en/news/they-tried-to-smoke-out-a-man-and-gassed-the-car-a-scandalous-video-of-the-tccs-actions-near-kyiv-has-appeared-online and one about literally tortures: https://news.novyny.live/en/u-genshtabi-vidreaguvali-na-pogrozi-ta-nasilstvo-u-211-i-brigadi-219974.html