There is a case to be made for not joining the race to the bottom. But likely these people constituents would be in favor of them voting this way. And in the end, that is who they are supposed to represent.
Attempting to grow a fascist dictatorship, with some success and even support, sure feels near the bottom of government dysfunction to me. But part of what makes all this so maddening is the difficulty in accurately assessing the situation. I acknowledge that in 4 years I may feel that my worries today were overblown, and I sure hope so!
I guess I’m not sure what argument you’re making. My argument is that asking Congress to uphold decorum is a mistake when you have bad faith actors (fascists) taking advantage of their good will. And you seem to be saying that no, they should still behave politely because we aren’t among the absolute worst governments? If that’s how you feel, where is your line? What government posture merits abandoning the traditions and norms that your opponents have long since jettisoned and which they now use cynically to thwart your own high-minded efforts?
I hope I’m not being uncharitable towards you. Maybe it’s more like “we both got bogged down in defining details and we lost the thread”, that’s a thing that happens all too often lol.
Well a big part of it all is that the interruption doesn’t really make a difference. It’s a show, likely done to get attention on himself. If it were to be something very effective, that would be another story. But it will start us down a path where the chamber will resemble a WWE production.
The original point though was that if the constituency of the dems that voted yes, support that vote, then they did thier job in representing thier voters. So that’s okay. If every vote follows strict party lines our government will be even more of a pendulum than it currently is. Swinging wildly to which ever side currently has the power.
Ah okay. Well I’m with you on part of it, if the people who voted them in agree / would have wanted that, then yes it is appropriate for them to have taken that vote. I do not want politicians deciding for us what we really want / need, full stop. With you there.
Not really with you that it’s the job of Dems at all to keep the Congress from becoming a circus. I’m trying to be pragmatic and realistic, I’m aware that Al Green’s performance doesn’t directly translate to the federal government being suddenly less effective at its crimes and abuses.
But please, remember that whatever your own life circumstances and status, there are very vulnerable people who are being hurt now, and these people want to hurt them worse and more. The people attacking and abusing our countrymen do not respect morality or the rule of law, in any capacity - WE DO NOT OWE THEM CIVILITY and I posit that we have nothing to gain from being civil with them. We need everyone with a microphone to be screeching that they are abusive monsters, daily, disrupting any and everything they attempt to do. They did it to the ACA which tried to be the most compassionate legislation we’ve seen in a generation, they’ve done it to every damn thing else that had a hope of helping Americans, we owe them nothing more than the basic human rights we owe anyone.
But we can agree to disagree too, I don’t pretend to have all the answers and have been wrong many times in my life. Cheers friend.
I agree we don’t owe them anything. And if being uncivil will make a difference, I am all for it. But if it won’t help, then let’s stay civil. In this specific case, if the floor of the house becomes a circus, people will start voting for clowns intentionally. Because it will become a required skill. I would rather it not. We already have too many clowns in there as is. And someday I hope it can go back a bit toward what it is supposed to be. A place for compromise. Though I do admit that I don’t have a lot of hope.
There is a case to be made for not joining the race to the bottom. But likely these people constituents would be in favor of them voting this way. And in the end, that is who they are supposed to represent.
We’re pretty damn near the bottom, bud. We need active resistance not polite words.
I think an awful lot of people around the world would argue we are nowhere near the bottom.
Attempting to grow a fascist dictatorship, with some success and even support, sure feels near the bottom of government dysfunction to me. But part of what makes all this so maddening is the difficulty in accurately assessing the situation. I acknowledge that in 4 years I may feel that my worries today were overblown, and I sure hope so!
I know it feels like it. But you could be in North Korea. That’s pretty close to rock bottom with very little hope of ever improving.
I guess I’m not sure what argument you’re making. My argument is that asking Congress to uphold decorum is a mistake when you have bad faith actors (fascists) taking advantage of their good will. And you seem to be saying that no, they should still behave politely because we aren’t among the absolute worst governments? If that’s how you feel, where is your line? What government posture merits abandoning the traditions and norms that your opponents have long since jettisoned and which they now use cynically to thwart your own high-minded efforts?
I hope I’m not being uncharitable towards you. Maybe it’s more like “we both got bogged down in defining details and we lost the thread”, that’s a thing that happens all too often lol.
Well a big part of it all is that the interruption doesn’t really make a difference. It’s a show, likely done to get attention on himself. If it were to be something very effective, that would be another story. But it will start us down a path where the chamber will resemble a WWE production. The original point though was that if the constituency of the dems that voted yes, support that vote, then they did thier job in representing thier voters. So that’s okay. If every vote follows strict party lines our government will be even more of a pendulum than it currently is. Swinging wildly to which ever side currently has the power.
Ah okay. Well I’m with you on part of it, if the people who voted them in agree / would have wanted that, then yes it is appropriate for them to have taken that vote. I do not want politicians deciding for us what we really want / need, full stop. With you there.
Not really with you that it’s the job of Dems at all to keep the Congress from becoming a circus. I’m trying to be pragmatic and realistic, I’m aware that Al Green’s performance doesn’t directly translate to the federal government being suddenly less effective at its crimes and abuses.
But please, remember that whatever your own life circumstances and status, there are very vulnerable people who are being hurt now, and these people want to hurt them worse and more. The people attacking and abusing our countrymen do not respect morality or the rule of law, in any capacity - WE DO NOT OWE THEM CIVILITY and I posit that we have nothing to gain from being civil with them. We need everyone with a microphone to be screeching that they are abusive monsters, daily, disrupting any and everything they attempt to do. They did it to the ACA which tried to be the most compassionate legislation we’ve seen in a generation, they’ve done it to every damn thing else that had a hope of helping Americans, we owe them nothing more than the basic human rights we owe anyone.
But we can agree to disagree too, I don’t pretend to have all the answers and have been wrong many times in my life. Cheers friend.
I agree we don’t owe them anything. And if being uncivil will make a difference, I am all for it. But if it won’t help, then let’s stay civil. In this specific case, if the floor of the house becomes a circus, people will start voting for clowns intentionally. Because it will become a required skill. I would rather it not. We already have too many clowns in there as is. And someday I hope it can go back a bit toward what it is supposed to be. A place for compromise. Though I do admit that I don’t have a lot of hope.