"Silly me, how could I not realised that the real victims here are the men who have to live in fear of women who talk about their genuine fears of being killed."
The answer to “not all men” is indeed “enough men”.
The issue isn’t that it’s 100% of men that do a thing. It’s that it’s enough you have to plan for it to happen every time. Ah in that case you may as well just assume it’s all and be pleasantly surprised if you’re wrong.
I’m sorry, what even is this argument?? The commenter above you is saying that women have enough proven experience of men being shitty to have to prepare for it in every interaction. Even if they know that it’s ‘not all men’ it’s enough that they have to assume it could be any single one.
The only way this could be comparable to racism is if people had legitimate reasons to mistrust other races, which is not the case. Racism is the result of exaggerated stories and mistrust being created about a community with whom the racist generally has no connection.
Most of the time women being wary of men doesn’t lead to misandry, it just leads to world-weariness and guardedness around men until we know we can trust them. But even if it did, misandry and misogyny are not equivalent. Misogyny is a prejudice which has been embedded in society for millennia and which has only begun to be deconstructed in the last century. Misandry is a response to this condition, but it is not structural, it’s the position held by a handful of women exhausted by their shitty experiences with shitty men.
It’s honestly a wonder that more women don’t viscerally hate every man in existence, and men should be thankful that we continue to go out and put ourselves out there despite the plethora of bad and downright dangerous things we’ve experienced. Knowing that men can do awful things and preparing for that possibility is just a survival tactic for remaining in the world.
Lemme try again. The same argument is not used (at least, not legitimately) to justify racism, because you do not have to actively take precautions to defend yourself from people of other races.
i didn’t say misandry is equivalent to racism, i said the exact same argument is used to justify racism.
but there’s definitely a lot of overlap between prejudice based upon sex/gender vs prejudice based upon perceived race.
and rape culture isn’t really a thing, it’s not a culture… it’s a problem but that’s the wrong word.
there’s like, chinese culture and such… there’s no, like, People of the Rape… misogyny is an aspect of many cultures, but it’s not the culture itself and typically rape is extremely prohibited… and had the death penalty in most cultures throughout history…
misandry is an understandable response but, ultimately it’s not leading towards any solution…
It is misandry to generalize and discriminate against men because “all men are dangerous scumbags” or something.
Besides, it doesn’t help anyone, really, and fosters extra anxieties and aggression.
We absolutely need cultural shift that would help everyone (both women and men) to expose rapists and any sort of harassment. We need to eliminate any cultural acceptability of those actions that remain.
We do not need to propagate hate based on gender/sex.
Absolute majority of men are perfectly normal human beings, like absolute majority of black people aren’t criminals, or absolute majority of gays are not child molesters or whatever the stereotypes were. Besides, all of those traits are immutable.
…sure, I guess? An argument can be repurposed to try and make a lot of different points. Here’s the thing though…
A logical argument is considered valid if its conclusion follows necessarily from its premises, meaning that if the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. However, an argument can be valid but not necessarily true (like the argument you’re suggesting). This is because validity only concerns the form of the argument, not the truth of the premises or the conclusion.
Here are some examples of valid but not necessarily true arguments:
Modus ponens: If it’s raining, then the streets will be wet. It is raining. Therefore, the streets will be wet. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Modus tollens: If it is not raining, then the streets will not be wet. The streets are not wet. Therefore, it is not raining. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Hypothetical syllogism: If it is raining, then the streets will be wet. If the streets are wet, then the roads are slippery. Therefore, if it is raining, then the roads are slippery. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the roads are not slippery for some other reason.
In each of these examples, the argument is valid because it follows a valid logical form, but it may not be true because the premises or conclusion may not be true.
Now think about the “enough men” argument. It’s not translatable to misogyny and racism because the context (the premises) is vastly different for people who don’t identify as men, and for people who are not white, straight, or really any other centered group (these things vary a lot depending on the specific culture you’re looking at and the intersectional dynamics that exist). Not enough women are violent towards men (though this does happen, and it is also bad) for men to have a realistic need to protect themselves in as many interactions.
Using the argument out of specific context, without true premises, nearly guarantees that the argument will no longer be true, while still being logically valid.
But why have people I know given me a ton of flak for the actions of men that I’ve never met nor had the opportunity to try to correct the actions of, merely for having a penis? Like, sorry for not being a clairvoyant and not stopping something from happening to you before I met you.
Do people give you a ton of flak, or do they complain about things they’ve experienced exclusively at the hands of men and you’re getting defensive about it?
If it were just venting to me, I wouldn’t say I was getting flak. Its the venting but also the finger pointing, acting like I was there and egging it on, when I wasn’t around it at all.
Maybe because you defend them. Or they see you not being a proactive force. It’s not enough to stand by and wait for something horrendous to happen to try to stop. You need to be part of the culture of change which means changing how you joke and talk about things to actively pursuing to change even bad and minor habits of those you socialize with.
That’s not how assumptions work though. You might be “pleasantly surprised”, then the guy realizes “wow, I super hated being treated like that just for being male” and wisely stays the fuck away.
Ask any woman, they’ll let you know that some guys take that “wow, I super hated being treated like that” and don’t wisely stay the fuck away. Someone who cannot empathize with the caution women have to show around strangers is probably not the best partner anyway.
The answer to “not all men” is indeed “enough men”.
The issue isn’t that it’s 100% of men that do a thing. It’s that it’s enough you have to plan for it to happen every time. Ah in that case you may as well just assume it’s all and be pleasantly surprised if you’re wrong.
the exact same argument is used to justify racism…
misandry is no better than misogyny
I’m sorry, what even is this argument?? The commenter above you is saying that women have enough proven experience of men being shitty to have to prepare for it in every interaction. Even if they know that it’s ‘not all men’ it’s enough that they have to assume it could be any single one.
The only way this could be comparable to racism is if people had legitimate reasons to mistrust other races, which is not the case. Racism is the result of exaggerated stories and mistrust being created about a community with whom the racist generally has no connection.
Most of the time women being wary of men doesn’t lead to misandry, it just leads to world-weariness and guardedness around men until we know we can trust them. But even if it did, misandry and misogyny are not equivalent. Misogyny is a prejudice which has been embedded in society for millennia and which has only begun to be deconstructed in the last century. Misandry is a response to this condition, but it is not structural, it’s the position held by a handful of women exhausted by their shitty experiences with shitty men.
It’s honestly a wonder that more women don’t viscerally hate every man in existence, and men should be thankful that we continue to go out and put ourselves out there despite the plethora of bad and downright dangerous things we’ve experienced. Knowing that men can do awful things and preparing for that possibility is just a survival tactic for remaining in the world.
Lemme try again. The same argument is not used (at least, not legitimately) to justify racism, because you do not have to actively take precautions to defend yourself from people of other races.
once you’ve screamed at me in all caps and called me names, nah… i’m done talking to you
It’s not misandry to be wary around men. Rape culture is a thing. It is not equivalent to racism.
i didn’t say misandry is equivalent to racism, i said the exact same argument is used to justify racism.
but there’s definitely a lot of overlap between prejudice based upon sex/gender vs prejudice based upon perceived race.
and rape culture isn’t really a thing, it’s not a culture… it’s a problem but that’s the wrong word.
there’s like, chinese culture and such… there’s no, like, People of the Rape… misogyny is an aspect of many cultures, but it’s not the culture itself and typically rape is extremely prohibited… and had the death penalty in most cultures throughout history…
misandry is an understandable response but, ultimately it’s not leading towards any solution…
People use arguments to justify everything. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. This is a stupid point.
If you can’t be bothered to so much as type “what is rape culture” into google, I’m done talking to you
It is misandry to generalize and discriminate against men because “all men are dangerous scumbags” or something.
Besides, it doesn’t help anyone, really, and fosters extra anxieties and aggression.
We absolutely need cultural shift that would help everyone (both women and men) to expose rapists and any sort of harassment. We need to eliminate any cultural acceptability of those actions that remain.
We do not need to propagate hate based on gender/sex.
Absolute majority of men are perfectly normal human beings, like absolute majority of black people aren’t criminals, or absolute majority of gays are not child molesters or whatever the stereotypes were. Besides, all of those traits are immutable.
It’s a good thing literally no one actually thinks that all men are dangerous scumbags
You’d be surprised.
People might say that on the internet, but how many of those people have male SOs, or dads, or brothers? Could they be engaging in hyperbole?
…sure, I guess? An argument can be repurposed to try and make a lot of different points. Here’s the thing though…
A logical argument is considered valid if its conclusion follows necessarily from its premises, meaning that if the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. However, an argument can be valid but not necessarily true (like the argument you’re suggesting). This is because validity only concerns the form of the argument, not the truth of the premises or the conclusion.
Here are some examples of valid but not necessarily true arguments:
Modus ponens: If it’s raining, then the streets will be wet. It is raining. Therefore, the streets will be wet. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Modus tollens: If it is not raining, then the streets will not be wet. The streets are not wet. Therefore, it is not raining. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Hypothetical syllogism: If it is raining, then the streets will be wet. If the streets are wet, then the roads are slippery. Therefore, if it is raining, then the roads are slippery. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the roads are not slippery for some other reason.
In each of these examples, the argument is valid because it follows a valid logical form, but it may not be true because the premises or conclusion may not be true.
Now think about the “enough men” argument. It’s not translatable to misogyny and racism because the context (the premises) is vastly different for people who don’t identify as men, and for people who are not white, straight, or really any other centered group (these things vary a lot depending on the specific culture you’re looking at and the intersectional dynamics that exist). Not enough women are violent towards men (though this does happen, and it is also bad) for men to have a realistic need to protect themselves in as many interactions.
Using the argument out of specific context, without true premises, nearly guarantees that the argument will no longer be true, while still being logically valid.
But why have people I know given me a ton of flak for the actions of men that I’ve never met nor had the opportunity to try to correct the actions of, merely for having a penis? Like, sorry for not being a clairvoyant and not stopping something from happening to you before I met you.
Do people give you a ton of flak, or do they complain about things they’ve experienced exclusively at the hands of men and you’re getting defensive about it?
If it were just venting to me, I wouldn’t say I was getting flak. Its the venting but also the finger pointing, acting like I was there and egging it on, when I wasn’t around it at all.
Maybe because you defend them. Or they see you not being a proactive force. It’s not enough to stand by and wait for something horrendous to happen to try to stop. You need to be part of the culture of change which means changing how you joke and talk about things to actively pursuing to change even bad and minor habits of those you socialize with.
Anything less is condoning.
That’s not how assumptions work though. You might be “pleasantly surprised”, then the guy realizes “wow, I super hated being treated like that just for being male” and wisely stays the fuck away.
Ask any woman, they’ll let you know that some guys take that “wow, I super hated being treated like that” and don’t wisely stay the fuck away. Someone who cannot empathize with the caution women have to show around strangers is probably not the best partner anyway.
“Caution” alone is fine, it’s cute you think that’s the extent of what gets justified by that line of thinking.