The Democracy of the founding fathers was Greek Democracy, predicated upon a slave society, and restricted to only the elite. This is the society we live in today, even with our reforms towards direct representation. The system is inherently biased towards the election of elites and against the representation of the masses. Hamilton called it “faction” when the working class got together and demanded better conditions, and mechanisms were built in (which still exist to this day) that serve to ensure the continued dominance of the elite over the masses. The suffering of the many is intentional. The opulence of the wealthy is also. This is the intended outcome.

  • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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    1 year ago

    If a person would rather allow land to go fallow purely because of profit incentive, and that fallow land will result in the suffering of others, the only moral thing to do is dispossess them of that land. They weren’t using it anyway apparently, in this hypothetical.

    • Maeve@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      My government actually pays mostly corporate (but not all) farmers not to produce or actively destroy their products, rather than buy it and have communities freely disperse it.

      • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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        1 year ago

        You’re right, it requires people! It’s too bad there’s not an army of people underemployed in exploitative jobs that do not meet their basic needs along with an army of unemployed and often even unhoused people… We could just… pay them living wages to farm… there’s an idea!

        • essell@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          Excellent, so we’ll need some profits on that food then, to pay them?

          Let’s keep going with this thinking. We’re inventing a system from first principles

          • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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            1 year ago

            Profits aren’t wages, you obviously haven’t read much economics. Profits are what’s left AFTER wages and costs.

            • essell@beehaw.org
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              1 year ago

              You’re failing to differentiate between gross and net profits.

              Ever run a business?

              How is everyone going to afford this food if you’re selling it for a gross profit? I believe that was your original point.

              • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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                1 year ago

                Yes, I have run a business haha. Profit doesn’t mean either gross or net profits, it means, and I quote from the dictionary,

                “Profit: The amount by which revenue from sales exceeds costs in a business”. Profit: a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

                That is profit. Now, people can break it down further, but, when someone is referring to profits, you should assume they mean the dictionary definition of profits.

                • essell@beehaw.org
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                  1 year ago

                  I should, should I?

                  You previously suggested I’ve not read enough economics, so should I assume you have? Do they all use that word with that meaning?

                  Also, I’m wondering if you have an answer to the other question. How is everyone going to afford this food that’s being sold even if it doesn’t have a markup?

                  • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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                    1 year ago

                    How is anyone going to afford the food that is no longer being marked up? If the food is cheaper, somehow less people will be able to afford it than now? Is that the position you’re coming from?

                    I’d like to answer your question, it’s just… not really a question that makes any logical sense.

                    And yes, you should. I can provide plenty of economic texts if you would like to come to understand the economic system you live under. We can even start all the way back with Adam Smith, and move up from there. Like the part where he says that someone holding land without working to improve it does not deserve the land, and should not be allowed to keep it.

    • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      the only moral thing to do is dispossess them of that land.

      And give it to who? Who’s going to farm that land when they’re not allowed to make a profit from it? It’s not easy work.

      • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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        1 year ago

        Maybe some of the millions of people who are currently unable to even afford adequate food for themselves because of the profiteering of these very landholders, who engage in such sabotage as mass slaughter and burial of animals to prevent price drops. You know, profits are after wages, right? Profits aren’t wages. You only make profits after you pay wages and costs. So… you pay wages.

        • galloog1@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          When you place economic decisions from a profit driven one into the hands of the politician, you get just as perverse incentives. What’s even worse is that the government cannot fail so the system just gets progressively worse until the entire system collapses. I’m good with a liberal system as is with some moderate reforms to account for externalities.

          • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tfOP
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            1 year ago

            I will just copy and paste part of my comment that I made to another, because your final argument is the same.

            I get it, suffering is okay if it’s the status quo, but if it happens in service of doing better, that’s not okay, so we should just be happy with the status quo, where the vast majority suffer daily indignities and violences, and are forced into exploitation by coercive structures.

            You benefit from the current system, so the suffering of the many NOW is less real to you than the potential suffering of yourself in a situation that when enacted had objectively raised the quality of life for the vast majority of people who live in the societies where it was enacted, by all objective measures. Is that it?