• Mr_Blott@feddit.uk
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      13 days ago

      And those that still think fReE sPEECh is an acceptable concept in the modern world?

      • Bakkoda@sh.itjust.works
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        13 days ago

        Free speech without consequences is what fascists are after. Free speech is an action to which they want no reaction or even worse when there is a negative reaction (also a desired goal) they will use that to attack the structures attempting to uphold peace.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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        13 days ago

        Free speech is absolutely an acceptable concept, but it’s merely a restriction on government.

        Private platforms are free to drop you from their platform if they don’t like your speech, and you can be prosecuted if your speech violates a law (e.g. hate speech). Platforms can also restrict the types of speech allowed on their platforms. None of that is a violation of free speech.

        Free speech is only violated if governments place a restriction on the speech itself, or force private entities to enforce restrictions.

        • Ulrich@feddit.org
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          13 days ago

          but it’s merely a restriction on government.

          It isn’t. Free speech is a right the gov can give you, but it’s also just a concept.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                13 days ago

                It’s not a strawman, it’s literally what you wrote.

                The Bill of Rights in the US only exists to prevent encroachment on individual rights, they’re not necessary in order for people to have them. Arguably, governments only have rights explicitly granted to them, because they only exist due to the people submitting themselves to them.

                It’s an important distinction, and one so many seem to misunderstand. I’m not saying you do, I’m merely clarifying in case someone else does.

                • futatorius@lemm.ee
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                  13 days ago

                  And, in reality, the only rights that remain are those that have been fought for. “Inalienable rights, granted by the Creator” is a lovely concept, but it’s not self-enforcing, and as we’ve seen, rights can be effectively nullified by a corrupt Supreme Court and a fascist legislature and executive branch. OK, you can pretend they still exist in the abstract, but they’re de facto gone if state institutions or people power don’t defend them.

                • Ulrich@feddit.org
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                  13 days ago

                  It’s not a strawman, it’s literally what you wrote.

                  You ignored the point I was making to argue about semantics. Still are. That’s a strawman.

        • surph_ninja@lemmy.world
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          13 days ago

          That doesn’t make them Nazis. It makes them defenders of free speech.

          Free speech protects unpopular speech. Popular speech doesn’t need to be protected.

          • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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            13 days ago

            This isn’t about free speech. This is about amplification and publication of speech.

            You can say whatever you want, but we shouldn’t guarantee you a megaphone to say it.

            • surph_ninja@lemmy.world
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              13 days ago

              The platform isn’t the megaphone. That’s the algorithm.

              If you’re wanting their access to platforms limited, I’d like the know where you draw the line. Are they allowed to text hate speech to each other? Publish their own email or print newsletters? Should we ban them from access to printers (or printing press while we’re at it)? Should they be allowed to have hateful conversations with large groups of each other?

              • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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                13 days ago

                That’s up to the owner of the megaphone.

                If the megaphone owner doesn’t want you to use it, create your own.

                • surph_ninja@lemmy.world
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                  12 days ago

                  And there’s the expected bootlicking. You went from complaining about who gets access to the megaphone, to openly praising government censorship coordination.

                  Maybe if you want more censorship so bad, you should take your own advice and start your own platform.

                  • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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                    12 days ago

                    Sorry, I was busy gagging on a boot or I would’ve responded sooner.

                    The rise of fascism across the United States is partially because they’ve been allowed to coordinate, and are public and loud with their normalization of hate.

                    Free speech absolutionists quickly run up against the paradox of tolerance. And at that point you get to choose. Do you want the most tolerance society or do you want full freedom of speech?

                    If you think you want full freedom of speech, then you don’t understand how people will abuse that to take it away from you anyway.