I’m not in the US, but it seems to me that the Republicans keep breaking norms and procedures, including politicising impeachment and ignoring illegal, immoral and plain bad conduct.
They also seem to be fine with not applying the same standard across the isle.
On the other hand, either Democrats follow new precedent, with even more devolving, or they keep the old decorum and get their asses kicked by Republican foul play.
What ways out of this spiral are there?
There is more discussion that might be useful here: https://ponder.cat/post/1453581
Grass-roots local freaking organization. People keep waiting for someone to save them not realizing: they’re someone. Get involved with whatever local org is trying to improve people’s lives. Address the problems that the right wing is lying about solving. Support whatever local candidate aligns with that view or hell become that candidate. Then get more people on board. We all love Bernie right? Well that’s what Bernie has been preaching for decades. And the results for his state have been great.
The extreme right flourishes because the establishment (left and right) has for decades ignored real people’s issues. You hears those interviews with Trump voters? They’re not talking about wanting to reinstate the Third Reich, they’re complaining about their real life hardships being ignored by politicians. And yeah Trump is obviously lying but desperate people will believe a lie if no one else is providing a better alternative.
You’re not wrong, but I don’t see the relevance to the topic? Unless this is part of the public revolt?
Organising to protect immigrants in your area is admirable, but how do you get rid of the necessity to do that? You’ll have to replace the politicians, no?
And you’ll probably need to be revolution sized and well organised to be able to do that when they ignore any procedure or deal that doesn’t benefit them in the specific moment.
There’s not going to be a public revolt or at least I wouldn’t hold my breath. And besides public revolts may feel cathartic but historically they don’t have the kind of outcome we’d hope for. Not to mention the civil war that’d likely ensue.
There’s no overnight solution to this problem. And you can’t start from the top if you’re not already a billionaire with a private social media network. But you can get people on your side or rather show that you’re on their side.
The real enemy is the same for both of us: the 0.01%. Trump supporters have just been brainwashed into thinking Trump is the man to solve that problem. And to be fair a lot of the left has been brainwashed into thinking the establishment Democrats are the only way forward.
But in the end it’s the extreme right that profits from us screaming insults at each other.
When has there been a revolution without a revolt in all of history?
When has there been a 180° change without a revolution in all of history?
In much of the world, Unions were forged in blood of many revolts.
Nation separation and independence was almost exclusively revolution.
Even the civil rights (which most people have been whitewashed into thinking was peaceful) had the black panthers. They have been completely villified, but the civil rights movement would not have succeeded without their willingness to use violence.
History has shown time and time again that violence works and peaceful movements are stamped out 99% of the time.
Protest, absolutely. And possibly violent ones, could be. But until we get a good majority of people on our side we’re just going to be fighting our own while the oligarchs laugh. You want to start a fist fight with a conservative over pronouns? It sounds fun but it won’t accomplish anything.
I’m not saying we can get to where we need to be 100% nonviolently but it has to start there. You have to build a base before you can overthrow anything. You’re talking about skipping to the last step without taking all the necessary steps in between. The revolution part is always romanticized but all the hard work that goes into it is ignored. That’s how Occupy failed so miserably.
I believe this is the right video. It should go a long way to answering your question.
Top down organization of political parties like the Democrats in the US is relatively new. Last 50+ years or so, and antidemocratic. Look to when the Democratic party was much better for the average man. And one of the differences you’ll see was it was much more bottom up. Local organization and community building is vital. Not just for left anarchist/libertarians like myself. But to any common man looking for a political party to represent them. Leaving leadership to their own devices is how leadership became so out of touch.
Iirc, Reagan was the first to strongarm a party line and establish the strategy of voting for power over anything which has proven very effective, with courts, gerrymandering, and stalled electoral reforms very helpful to form this current opportunity.
But with the current system where it is, I have trouble seeing any such grass roots being able to accomplish much until they gain a majority enough, for long enough to re-establish the checks & balances. Electoral voting and the two party system makes it incredibly hard for a new party to establish, and even then they will get bogged down in the same malintent behaviour exhibited now. At least enough to appear powerless, ineffectual or otherwise not making change enough to keep taking seats, like the Democrats of the last few cycles.
Do you envision some kind of path short of a revolution to throw out the current politicians?
We don’t need a new party though. And no one should be arguing for one. As it would be ineffectual until we change the system as you said. What we need is local and Community leadership for the Democratic Party. What we need is to not leave the leadership decisions up to those in Washington.
Yes top down leadership can be very effective. But not in the long term. Otherwise the Soviet Union would still exist. Otherwise our parties would still represent us. If we want a party to start representing us again. We need to stop making it them and us. And just make it us. And the only way to do that is to stop relying on someone to lead nationally. Start leading locally. With the national parties only duties to coordinate between new York Democrats, Florida Democrats, Missouri Democrats, and California Democrats. And we get there by community action.
Am I understanding you correctly that you’re advocating for grassroots campaigning for the Democrats?
As in: drumming up public support to vote in a Democrat majority, presumably in the hopes of creating a long term Democrat rule where they could address the checks & balances, the skewed system, the dysfunctional ethics and decorum situation, etc.?
That would indeed be a path forward, but I’m worried that the Republicans would counter campaign very hard, and as proved aren’t hesitant to use any trick they can to not give up power.
It’s what historically worked, but is it still feasible?
Not for national Democrats. State and local Democrats. In a red state like mine. The state apparatus is practically non existent. Republicans run unopposed almost as often as they run against a non Republican. Which includes non Democrats.
Small towns and hamlets organizing as for instance in my case, Missouri Democrats. Run by locals, for locals. Who don’t prostrate themselves at the foot of the National Party as a simple reaction. That would go against the national party when it serves their interests.
Yes the fascists have spent decades putting out antidemocrat propaganda. But when it’s Dave from a few blocks over running. Not some faceless person largely supported by groups outside the state. That sort of propaganda tends to fall flat when they can’t "other” you.
Do this in enough towns and possibly get one of the smaller cities. All of a sudden, the state arm of the National Party might hold less influence than you do. It would be rather easy to force them into irrelevance with something like that. Which is what needs to be done.
It is 100% feasible. When you have a connection to a group to a party. One that’s local and accountable to you. They can try to spread whatever lies they want about it. The people who deal with them will know the truth. Propaganda really only works, and works best about groups you have no real contact with or understanding of. It’s how and why Communists and Jews were targeted in 1930s Germany. They were harmless minorities. But most people didn’t have any stake in defending them or knowing them. So they were easy targets. It’s why the fascist today are targeting trans people and immigrants. A lot of people don’t knowingly have contact of any note with these groups. So they don’t know that the fascists are lying and misrepresenting things. Granted with basic critical thinking skills they should know. But critical thinking skills are not something we value in America unfortunately. Not that we are alone.
I think I’ve overestimated the cohesion between local, state and federal level organisations. I was kind of assuming people like DeSantis and Scott were doing their things to further the party line. And maybe they are the odd ones to do that in contrast to the other state politicians.
I hope you’re right, and it could actually yield a peaceful end to the degrading spiral. It’s gonna be a long road though, here’s wishing you luck and stubbornness!
I agree and it’s what I’m trying to lean into. I’ve been thinking of democracy as a verb or a muscle that has atrophied in me. Corporations certainly aren’t democratic, and most systems we live in nowadays don’t lend themselves towards democratic modes of engagement. My goal is to learn more about unions and look at mutual aid groups and tenant unions and look at examples in American history when people were more civically engaged and try to do more.
The nazis and religious zealots should continue to have their free speech and be able to parade, but they need to be shunned back to the recesses of popularity and life where they were scorned and looked at with disgust and their points were not granted the dignity to be engaged with in ‘debate’. Instead they are now treated as a spectacle and a disbelief that anyone even truly believes those things. They also successfully framed the discussion that they have reason and science on their side, and culturally we all need to understand they are ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
I’ll suggest that the nazis and fanatics don’t get to express their nazi or fanatical views.
You can check out Popper’s Paradox/Paradox of Tolerance, which suggests that a tolerant society must counteract intolerance or it spreads to destroy all tolerance.
You’re probably right, I basically agree too, but idk. It just doesn’t seem to ever stop a zealot or a nazi or the spread of their ideology. Not to mention in America it’s basically every zealous evangelists wet dream that one day their bible will be illegal and their gospel will be silenced by the government - they’ve been saying it’ll happen for decades. I’d rather them say what they truly think out loud and for our culture to not tolerate it by collectively being disgusted and enraged and having no pity for if they do get hurt. Like I wish that no one would care or be surprised if someone that says ‘the gays and black culture are degenerate and are agents of demons and Jews’ get their ass beat because they basically should, but to make it law and have the courts and government do it? Idk. Seems like a trap to me. I just want cops to turn a blind eye and no one be surprised if a nazi gets punched. But idk Germany seems to be doing fine with it being illegal. It’s probably just some bs free speech absolutism Ive picked up being American.
I’m sure the French were asking this exact question in 1788.
France is also smaller than Texas. I would like to see a revolution, but we are so spread out I can’t see it happening.
Not as a united nation, no. I think this is the start of the dissolution of the US as a single entity. The divisions will become clear soon.
Sure France is smaller but it was in 1789, going to Paris at this time would take days or weeks, now in a day or two anyone with a car could move through the US.
The communication is way easier now, it’s much easier to get organized on a large scale.
I would strongly argue that it is more difficult now.
There is mass communication, yes, but 90% of that communication is rolled on over to the government with the exact location, search history, secrets, psychological profile, medical histoey, vices, everything at the tip of their fingers for every single dissident to exploit and blackmail them into stopping.
In those days if a letter wasn’t signed and resistance posters were put up at odd hours, nobody would be able to track down the leader and who was doing it. Now, the surveillance state is so big, it would take a matter of hours to make a full roster of the resistance and have an “accidental” police raid on their house where they are killed “by mistake” and it is ruled a suicide.
The entire success of revolution movements came out of anonymity and the fact that the government couldn’t snuff out the organization and break it up. Now, with technology, it is quite trivial to break anonymity anywhere on the main internet. Long lasting organization is much much harder.
That isn’t even getting into engineered addictive media to keep people occupied and demotivates just enough to not get organized.
Most of the nation has the surveillance equipment they need in their homes.
EAT THE RICH!
This is the way. Rise of the proletariat!
Join your local advocacy organizations, volunteer and make the difference in your community/local area. It’ll have more impact for you than you can ever do via federal level.
Yep… war or a plane
Try living here. I feel hopeless every time I go online or turn on the TV.
I’m still optimistic. While the severity of the current shitshow is unprecedented, the reality is we tend to bounce left and right. One side gets in power and does (or doesn’t) shit, until people get pissed off and elect the other side.
I am more worried about the death of media and rise of streaming. Just like the rise of TV changed who could be elected and how, new media is also changing that. So far new media helps elect people with dark skills, people farther from anyone you’d want governing. It’s not pretty, it’s not good, and it’s getting worse before it gets better. Truth doesn’t matter, echo chambers matter, outrage matters.
Trump absolutely matters. This isn’t your avg rightward swing of the pendulum. They have gone full mask off and are ripping the copper out of the walls. This country genuinely will not survive this presidency. 0% chance it survives intact as a democracy.
It’s not exactly 0%. Their ineptitude is still fully on display, and that’s always been our greatest hope. But it is pretty bleak, and pinning our future on the hopes that the other side makes a mistake only makes it bleaker.
ripping the copper out of the walls
Damn that’s a good analogy for the current slate of grifters!
Things can get better. Theres a saying; third time’s the charm.
Wait for the Germans to liberate you, I guess.
They’re sliding back into Nazism too.
Yeah, but they’re still a lot less Nazi than the USA were in 1939.
(That’s also something that gives me hope today: There aren’t any full-on Nazi rallies in a packed Madison Square Garden. Yet back then, just 2 years after this photo, the US started supporting the fight against the Nazis.)The US wasn’t run by Nazis in 1939 though. The same (rather popular) guy who was President in 1939 was President in 1941.
It’s very possible Germany becomes run by Nazis again.
It is not possible at all. No one familiar with German law and culture think this. This is not a talking point I have ever heard discussed seriously. There ist probably hundreds of reasons why it could never happen. Our legal framework ist very strong and we have a strong civil framework of resistance in case something goes in that direction.
It’s very possible Germany becomes run by Nazis again.
Nope. Not a chance. You can quote me on this.
I do see how it looks like it could right now, though.There’s around 25% convinced right wing supporters in Germany. That number hasn’t changed all that much in decades.
Now shit looks bad cause all 25% feel empowered and have rallied behind a single party, instead of being split into reluctant conservative voters, non-voters and a few hardcore Nazi party voters like in the past.
But 25% aren’t enough to take over our system. Our entire country was specifically designed to prevent that, from top to bottom.
Or Mexico tbh, wait until the civil war is spent and watch the cartels roll in
Need to reorganize liberal politics from the ground up. Liberals need to justify their existence and the value of their policies at the city and state level and use that to build a national brand. Democrats in federal government seem to be totally unwilling to push their agenda in deference to political norms, but in my state they get quite a lot done when they’re in power
I disagree. Just by going off margins of past elections the last decade. Dems tend to have more loyal voters in non presidential years.
oh brother, you still think we’re on a spiral, as in active? dude the spiral is complete, and now the monsters have control of all three branches of us government, they’re going to do their damnedest to make sure they change just about everything that could possibly allow the power to be taken from them ever again. should have gotten the young people to vote, but wasn’t important, looking a bit more important now, huh. dumbest thing i’ve ever seen, trump was president, fucked everything up, a million americans died bad from a pandemic due to his ineptitude, then young people stayed home and didn’t vote democrat … can’t make this shit up, the jokes write themselves. and now … unstoppable destruction, and death.
You need to go have a beer with some friends and get off the internet for now.
Emigration or civil war, I’d wager. My home country will be a fascist state during my lifetime, as I’ve been saying for about three to four years.
Armed revolution by the workers
Armed being the key word here. Show them what the left actually does with weapons.
I have no idea, but I think something will have to happen that affects the majority of Americans. Another sustained Depression for example. Republicans will have to crash and burn the country down before their voters will turn on them. They have to experience pain for themselves, for they have no empathy for others. They say they do, but they cannot. They say they are Christian, but turn their back on what they say his teachings are. I’m fed up and scared at the same time. I hit retirement age in less than 10 years. Social security won’t be there for me. I did a terrible job of saving, I spent most of my paychecks on frivolous things like bills, rent, and food. I make good money now, but it’s not enough. I know I’m yelling into the void, but it feels good to say it.
Republicans are already poor and victimized. But all they watch is political propaganda (Fox News, Newsmax, OANN, etc) so they blame it on immigrants and trans people instead of the rich who are robbing them blind.
The only way I see out of it is not a way I like or am willing to talk about online. Let’s just say the second amendment is making more and more sense every day.
At this point? Probably not. Not if history is any indication. We’ve blown right past all the checkpoints that would have prevented this snowball effect. Our legislative processes are almost too irreparably damaged for a healthy democracy to exist. We’ve removed too many regulations regarding money in our politics and not placed enough regulations on the focus of power on individuals and entities within our government.
We’re probably going to go through a really dark period where the quality of life is going to decline, rights will be stripped, and a lot of vulnerable people are going to die and then, hopefully, things will get bad enough that a revolution happens. It won’t be like WW2 where more powerful forces come to our rescue. We’ll have to do it ourselves. And I don’t really have that much faith in our populace doing that. Again, it will take a really significant decline in quality of life for damn near everyone before that’s even possible. It looks like that’s where we’re headed though.
Sadly, I think you’re right.
It’s absurd that the wealthiest people in the world are making all the decisions that effect the rest of us, especially when they’re using that control to influence the rest of us through social media.
I think the only solution is a revolution where wealth is redistributed, probably through violence.
Bezos and Musks assets should just be nationalised. Give them pensions of 10m a year or something in return.
