More efficient manufacturing, falling battery costs and intense competition are lowering sticker prices for battery-powered models to within striking distance of gasoline cars.
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Recently, Mr. Lawrence said, customers have been snapping up used Teslas for a little over $20,000, after applying a $4,000 federal tax credit.
Oh, so you mean used electric cars.
Carmakers including Tesla, Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, the owner of Jeep, have announced plans for electric vehicles that would sell new for as little as $25,000.
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
For fuck’s sake…
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
What do y’all thinking “becoming” means? If they meant they are already affordable, they would have used the term “are.”
The problem is that they have been “becoming” affordable for 25 years, since the EV1.
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
For fuck’s sake…
i had the same feeling while knowing that people outside the united states can get brand new ev’s for $10k today.
New cars have always been expensive and out of reach for most, which is why the average new car buyer is well into their 50s.
I don’t see how people can logically make an argument about the necessity of switching to EVs for the environment while also demanding that everyone gets a brand new car. Scrapping a bunch of perfectly good cars to build new ones is not going to help out our climate issue.
Why don’t we stop subsidizing fossil fuel companies to the tune of $1Trillion Anually, and instead put all of that money towards subsidizing purchases and further R&D of electric vehicles? Oil and Gas corporations could enjoy the competition of the free market, and we the people could get access to new EVs for under $10k out of pocket - it would be a win-win!
I read that the issue with used EV’s is that you eventually need to replace the battery pack which can sometimes cost you as much as the car.
Edit: Seems I was misinformed. Glad to hear that replacing EV batteries is not much of a concern.
If it’s even possible. I’ve personally swapped the main battery pack on a Gen 1 Prius. Not easy, but more tedious than technical. Lifting the assembled unit was a hell of a chore but a coulple strapping dudes managed it. Reconditioned cells are available in a lot of places. I’ve had a Nissan Leaf and would get another one, but even finding a battery, let alone any info on swapping it was pretty much impossible.
Like 16 years ago you could buy a brand new chevy aveo with an msrp of $10,300.
Small econoboxes used to be cheap and affordable.
Regardless of where you fall on EVs or new car pricing, the Aveo was hot garbage and there’s a reason why they only cost $10k. This is the same reason why you don’t see any of them on the road anymore.
True, but at the time you could get a Toyota Echo or a Honda Fit or a Ford Fiesta or even a Nissan Versa which are all small cars that no longer exist.
And I see plenty of them still on the road.
Those were priced higher and comparable to the compacts like the Corolla, Civic, and Sentra.
I think there just wasn’t enough demand since people would rather pay a little more to get a little more car than they need for those rare times when a lot of cargo space was needed. Additionally, tiny CUVs like the RAV4 have increased in popularity quite a bit and still get great fuel economy, further reducing demand for the sub-compacts. These cars were also marketed toward young people like college students who have a harder time affording a new car these days and would rather buy a good used one for much cheaper.
You’re not wrong, but in fairness the headline says EVs are becoming affordable, not that they are affordable.
You’re not wrong, but in fairness the headline says EVs are becoming affordable, not that they are affordable.
he’s right; brand new ev’s go for about $10k outside the unites states; they’re already affordable but big tariffs are being employed to discourage buying them.
curiously, even the 100% american tariff still makes these ev’s more affordable than anything in that article and i’m wondering what’s going to happen once they start building them in mexico (ie nafta).
They don’t in Australia they’re still 50k min. We give massive subsidies to fossil fuel companies too
And of course Tesla’s are cheap used, they are an absolute train-wreck in the quality control department.
I paid too much for my EV, but am glad to see the prices come down for future buyers. When the price is competitive with ICE vehicles, I think we’ll see rapid adoption.
Which is why automakers and big oil have fought so hard against bringing down the cost of EVs.
I got my EV used, and in three years I’ve already saved more on gas than I paid for it.
EVs are so much cheaper to maintain and operate; no gas, no oil changes, no transmission, no sparkplugs or timing belts. If the sale prices are close, the total cost of ownership will be massively in favor of the EV.
Wait WHAT? EVs don’t require regular maintenance like a normal car does? That’s SICK (if true)
It does require maintenance, but you don’t have to worry about the engine, transmission, turbos and other related moving parts. Your maintenance is basically brakes, tyres and other simple and cheap wear and tear parts.
So no oil changes and shit like that? That’s is the biggest pro I’ve ever heard for EVs lmao
When the price is competitive with ICE vehicles, I think we’ll see rapid adoption.
they already cost $10k outside the united states so the price is already beyond competitive; the real barrier to adoption will be once/if the united states removes the 100% tariff they’ve placed on chinese ev’s.
fuck you NYT, define affordable… Nope, that’s not affordable.
They implicity, but clearly, define it: the same price as gasoline cars.
Also, Become != Are. It even notes, right in the blurb there, that they’re getting there, not that they are there.
Recently, Mr. Lawrence said, customers have been snapping up used Teslas for a little over $20,000, after applying a $4,000 federal tax credit.
3rd sentence?
I’ll share the rest because the paywall:
Carmakers including Tesla, Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, the owner of Jeep, have announced plans for electric vehicles that would sell new for as little as $25,000.
More than half of the used electric vehicles on the market sell for less than $30,000, according to Recurrent, a research firm that focuses on the used E.V. market.
Idk, you can get a used Tesla for like $25k now.
Be careful with those, chances are it’s an old fleet vehicle and those are not always the most well taken care of.
you can buy a brand new one for $10k outside the united states
Nope, that’s not affordable.
i had the same thought and i’m also thinking that i’m going to keep my 15 year old car until it dies in the hopes that i can get those brand new $10k ev’s that people outside the united states can get right now.
But think about the american car makers that produce a lot of their stuff abroad anyways! Who’s going to stuff their pockets?? God forbid you get cheap chinese EVs!
Stuff like this is starting to make its way into automotive youtubers feeds now. I just saw one where he picked up a Model S P85D for like $10k or something crazy because it was “insurance totaled”. The issue was they’d let the battery die in the lot and some idiots didn’t think to charge it.
But can they make them much much bigger? I hope so! It worked for ICE cars right? Just make them as big as a house and watch every day as they park north, south, east and west bound on the various freeways for the night.
I mean, the Kia EV9 seems pretty big. But I think you mean Ford Excursion big… and man… GM has a hummer of a truck for you. Also, no one is buying it.
The fact that VW’s ID Buzz doesn’t come with a Westfalia trim is a travesty.
They’re already fucking huge. Every EV in the US is an SUV or pickup. You want a small electric commuter in 2024, your only option is an ebike.
Most of those ‘SUVs’ are what we used to would call ‘station wagon’ or ‘compact wagon’.
Ioniq 5, Kia EV6, Mach-E, Model 3, Lyriq, and Blazer EV I would say aren’t particularly ‘big’ but all are ‘SUV’. You have Model 3 which is not even ‘technically’ an SUV. You also have the Leaf, the Niro EV, the Mini Cooper SE, which are all relatively smaller.
The models that are typical ‘large’ SUVs are relatively few. The EV9, the Rivian, maybe the Model X are the ones off the top of my head that are “Ford Explorer” big or larger. Yes the pickup trucks are blighted by the same “cosplay as a big rig” design language inflicted on the ICE pickups, except for CyberTruck which somehow managed to be even worse.
Maybe these cars don’t classify as SUVs by some metric, but they are definitely not small. Every vehicle in the US has gotten bigger in the last decade and EVs are no exception.
The Leaf is a reasonable size, the Ioniq 6 as well I think.
I drive a Leaf. I wish it was much smaller.
Seriously, I just want an EV Sportscar. Give me something Z car sized, RWD and no extras.
EV Miata please. With 4 wheel drive and a power hard top convertible.
Over 20k used, meanwhile China’s getting literally half the price new. But dems and republicans have joined hands in stopping this boon for the climate.
The Chinese cars that are half price don’t include any safety features, have a theoretical top speed of 80 mph, and a battery range of 100 miles. Those ones would never make it to the US even without tariffs.
Sounds perfect for my needs.
Where in America can you legally drive over 80mph?
(1) My shitbox 2006 Honda can go up to 120mph stock. They engineer cars to go twice their typical operating speed so the mechanical parts are not overstressed during normal operation. Imagine if you were trying to pass on the highway at 80 and your car literally tore itself apart.
(2) South Dakota
Slow the hell down
Parts of California. I believe I-5 has an 85mph speed limit in the big empty bits.
An advertised top speed of 80 means that, assuming you have ideal road conditions, tire conditions, are on a flat road, have no wind, and a long distance to get up to speed, you will hover at 78. There are plenty of places with a 65 mph speed limit, wind, and a big hill. Besides, most people will occasionally exceed the speed limit to “overtake traffic”.
Texas, actually. Some sections of highway are 85 mph.
Big state need big speed for small travel.
yeah, but then you’d have to live in texas. lol
i tried it for 5 years and no thank you!
Chinese EVs subsidized with prison labor and CCP funds to undercut the market and stagnate long-term innovation, what a boon to humanity!
Those damn Chinese prisoners working in advanced technological factories.
China investing in their EV companies is a good thing. Undercut the absolute fuck out of this overpriced gas guzzling SUV market.
Yeah when you use literal slaves instead of union labour, costs are down. I’m not willing to trade my humanity to save a few dollars and a debatable improvement to the climate disaster (I doubt the manufacture and extraction practices in China are anything approaching clean).
IMO this is a rare case of Washington doing the right thing.
Edit For the benefit of anyone at risk of being fooled by authoritarian propaganda, there is a plethora of evidence of slave labour used throughout the Chinese economy, from uyghur muslims to foxcons indentured workers. It’s prevelent through the supply chain for many, many industries, and that alone warrants discentives on imports until such time as these practices end.
To suggest that individual businesses, who are built within this system, may be somehow operating outside of it is clearly absurd, however it’s simply not possible for a layman to unpack and debate the supply chains and business practices hidden behind the bamboo curtain.
The discourse below is an example of how bad faith arguments can create doubt, by employing strawman arguments and ignoring actual points raised to create the appearance of being reasonable by hiding behind “citation needed” type arguments. If you read through it, you’ll see that the propagandist doesn’t once engage in anything I’ve actually said - this is intentional, they do not want to be in a position where any claim they make can be contested, nor do they actually want to directly contest any claim I’ve made. Rather they only want to sow doubt in what I’m saying, which takes considerably more effort to discredit than any actual claim.
Need a source for these EV factories using slave labor.
And by all means lets debate on the climate impact of these vehicles, what parts are you saying are a problem? While Americas been manufacturing more and more combustion trucks and SUVs, China has been leaving us in the green tech dust, ramping up renewable energy and EV production.
Google forced labour in China yourself, it isn’t my responsibility to provide resources to those choosing wilful ignorance or living under a rock when there’s masses of well documented human rights violations and masses of evidence documenting appallingly negligent mining and manufacturing practices.
Yes, its your claim its your responsibility. Show me the forced labour at the BYD facilities producing the $11k Seagull im talking about. Show me their negligent manufacturing practices.
Piss off, tankie
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Weird how tankies and anti-semites use the same tricks to push their agenda.
You know in 2021 I thought that the MSM was deliberately ignoring the issues with EVs and promoting overly rosy timelines as part of a political agenda.
After seeing the massive amount of FUD they published about EVs over the past year, I think they are just bad at their jobs.
It feels like the media covers EVs based on vibes versus doing actual research. As a result they’ve consistently publish articles that are either borderline nonsense hopium or complete doomerism.
IMO I still think hybrids will be instrumental tech over the next decade. Those 300 mile EVs often get much worse range in weather conditions that are common in many parts of the country. It’s also simply going to take considerable time for fast charging infrastructure to become ubiquitous enough to truly address range anxiety.
IMO I still think hybrids will be instrumental tech over the next decade. Those 300 mile EVs often get much worse range in weather conditions that are common in many parts of the country. It’s also simply going to take considerable time for fast charging infrastructure to become ubiquitous enough to truly address range anxiety.
People waaaay overestimate how much they drive. The average person drives about 30 miles per day. 99.5% of trips are under 100 miles. Cold weather can drop the range by about 25%. That is still perfectly fine for 99.5% of trips. You know what country also has pretty cold weather? Norway. They also happen to be the country with the highest percentage of EVs sold.
Fast charging is only needed for the extremely rare occasion that you are traveling over 250 miles. Heck, even a level 1 charger is fine for the majority of people most of the time. And the fast charge network is built out pretty decently already so that you are almost certainly within range of one.
There are absolutely some issues with EVs though. It certainly is not all sunshine and rainbows. While a level 1 charger is perfectly fine for most people, many do not even have that. Most apartment buildings do not have outlets you can use in your parking spot. That is a pretty large chunk of the population that would have to rely on fast chargers. That is a lot pricier.
And while you may be within range of a fast charger, you might not be by one that works. A good third of Electrify America’s don’t work. Some that do, do not give you the full speed.
Charging speed still does suck for road trips. Sure, an Ioniq can charge to 80% within 20 minutes but that is with a station that can push 350 kW which are pretty damn rare.
Companies also seem to want to make EVs futuristic looking with zero knobs and also lock you into their ecosystem to harvest your data. They claim it is to help you more accurately calculate range and to be able to find a charger. That’s horseshit. Just because something is battery powered does not mean it needs that shit. It would be one thing if they had competent software engineers but they largely don’t.
They write articles for people worried about 300 miles ranges who drive 40 miles a day the vast, vast majority of days.
Is it any wonder the coverage is awful?
How frequently would someone need to make a 200+ round trip in lousy weather that cuts into the range for them to have a valid reason? Once a month? Every two weeks?
What about people that go to temote areas that don’t even have gas stations? How often do they need to go?
I have a car that I mostly use for just trips around town. But once or sometimes twice a year, I go on a thousand-kilometer-or-so trip to visit some relatives. Assuming for whatever reason that this wouldn’t work with an EV, you can say “well that’s one trip a year you won’t be able to go on.”
But that trip is important to me. It’d be a huge negative not being able to do that, or a really big expense to rent a car capable of the trip. I wouldn’t switch exclusively to an EV if it wasn’t able to make that trip, because I have a car that can do it right now.
It’s a real concern.
Assuming for whatever reason that this wouldn’t work with an EV, you can say “well that’s one trip a year you won’t be able to go on.”
More realistically, you should be instead told “well, that’s one trip you’ll be making in a rental ICE car instead”.
You’d still come out on top overall, I’m pretty sure.
There is currently a bizarre anomaly in the market due to several massive rental car companies dumping their rolling stock. The tech isn’t yet there and there are a lot of interesting issues with depreciation.
What about electric car technology “isn’t yet there?”
My main two concerns are battery replacement (and affordability of replacements including a third party market for compatible parts) and battery restoration/recovery. Alternatively, if we could massively increase battery life span (not a single charge - but how many charge/discharge cycles they can survive) that might also allay my fears - but I think the first one is better.
So tired of hearing about battery replacement as if having a $10,000 thing that breaks in your car after 10 years is somehow unique to EVs. Ask Chrysler owners how many transmissions they’ve put in their car, or Subaru owners how many engines they’ve put in theirs. I bet the average battery pack is lasting far longer than either of those.
What issues with depreciation? Can you list actual models and prices to back your claim because it seems like most people are bitching about the high prices of EVs.
Can you list actual models and prices to back your claim because it seems like most people are bitching about the high prices of EVs.
I’m a BEV advocate, but even this is an easy one. In 2022 a Tesla Model 3 LR cost $52k while you can get the exact same car new today for $47k. This is even just MSRP. That $47k car is even $7500 cheaper for most people.
Tesla Model Y LR from the same year, 2022, is even more dramatic. It was $67k and now costs $49k.
That’s not depreciation that’s just a response to the highest interest rates we’ve seen in 20+ years and dwindling sales numbers.
This is no different than the monthly sales we used to see on every car prior to COVID but this was somewhat obscured by the nature of the dealership model and having to haggle on the actual price of the car.
That’s not depreciation that’s just a response to the highest interest rates we’ve seen in 20+ years and dwindling sales numbers.
Of course its depreciation. Its the very definition of depreciation. An asset was worth more at a point in the past than it is today. The reason for the value loss is irrelevant.
The definition of depreciation is:
a reduction in the value of an asset with the passage of time, due in particular to wear and tear.
The MSRP going down isn’t depreciation as you’re referring to a brand new item that you haven’t even purchased and hasn’t been used.
Prices shot way up during COVID and now they’re coming back to reality in response to higher interest rates and slowing sales across the entire automotive market, not just with EVs. Housing prices have come down too but again that doesn’t mean depreciation, it’s just a response to interest rates being 2-3x higher than they were just a couple of years ago and sale prices adjusting accordingly (you’re still paying more overall with interest).
The context here is that “people are concerned about depreciation,” but why would people be concerned that they’re able to buy these cars new at a slightly cheaper price to begin with? Most people prefer to pay as little as possible for things, which is the whole point of companies having a sale on their products.
The definition of depreciation is:
a reduction in the value of an asset with the passage of time, due in particular to wear and tear.
Look at the first half of that sentence. Thats the same idea I posted with my definition:
" Its the very definition of depreciation. An asset was worth more at a point in the past than it is today."
You’re getting hung up on the “wear and tear” thing because that’s a regular way that cars lose value over time, but its not the only way. A Picasso painting continues to slowly deteriorate over time but its value continues to go up because there is a market for people wanting his paintings. This would be an “appreciated asset” even though it still gets wear and tear.
The context here is that “people are concerned about depreciation,” but why would people be concerned that they’re able to buy these cars new at a slightly cheaper price to begin with?
The context here is that “people are concerned about depreciation,” but why would people be concerned that they’re able to buy these cars new at a slightly cheaper price to begin with?
Because many people buy cars with the expectation of only owning them for a couple of years and then selling them for something newer. If the value of their EV dropped by 50% in two years of ownership instead of dropping perhaps 20% of specific ICE cars, the they would be concerned about the depreciation. Even people that don’t sell so quickly want an asset that retains its value in case it gets totaled (and they need to buy a new replacement) or in case they need to sell it for emergency liquidity.
Okay assuming we do go with your definition, the 2019 Model 3 LR was $36,000, meaning they’ve appreciated by $11,000 over the last 5 years. Once again this disproves your point.
The 2022 numbers you picked were the absolute peak of COVID era pricing, but they’re still selling for more than they used to, meaning they aren’t depreciating at all.
Bringing down the dealership price means fuck all if they’re worthless on the second hand market, unless there’s some miracle tech that prevents the battery capacity from dropping like a lead balloon internal combustion engines are never going away. A car from the 50s can still travel the same distance on a full tank but an electric car from the early 2010s can barely get around a car park on a full charge.
Hydrogen is the way to go, it can be created using clean energy and it’s exhaust tends to be cleaner than the air it took in.
Toyota managed to run an engine from the 80s on high pressure hydrogen with barely any alterations and there have been trials where mains gas in the uk has been replaced with hydrogen. We’re so close to having the access required to transition to hydrogen but there’s only one or two models that can use it rn.
car from the 50s can still travel the same distance on a full tank
How much have you spent in maintenance over the last 70 years to even keep it running?
an electric car from the early 2010s can barely get around a car park
Not even remotely true.
Assuming you need a new battery every 10 years or so considering that’s their usual lifespan you’re looking at spending $70,000-$140,000 at 10,000 - 20,000 per battery according to a quick Google search. Do you really think that someone is spending $2,000 a year just making sure a tiny roadster that was designed to be repaired with a spanner on a driveway can run?
I read a report that Model 3 LFPs were down to around $7k. CATL claims te be under $5k this year for a brand new pack good for about a 200 mile range. Analysts predict under $3k for that pack in 2025. This is even ignoring the potential to remanufacture an existing pack, reusing the parts of the packs that don’t degrade, and potentially reclaiming some value for recycling the cells. LFPs also have more durability, so likely to be a 15 year workable lifespan for most drivers.
This is a rapidly evolving situation, with prices going down dramatically for battery. If it lands at less than $5k for a 15 year maintenance item, then that’s even less than I spent keeping my 15 year old Acura in working order toward the end, ignoring the extra costs I had to spend on the gas compared to the EV charging. About half the gas cars I’ve owned have been a money pit for maintenance, and the other half haven’t been super cheap either. The EVs have been much lower maintenance, though admittedly the maintenance cost will be high years down the line, but I wager in aggregate it’ll be cheaper than the maintenance costs of my traditional cars have been.
Again, not true.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/
If the battery is at less than 70% at 8 years, they’ll replace it free. My 10 year old Volt is still doing close enough to what it was new that I can’t tell the difference. It’s not like the battery just goes poof and turns into smoke after 10 years.
A tiny roadster from the 50s is what, an MG, Fiat, maybe a Triumph? Any one of them are probably spending more time getting repaired than actually driving.
Keeping a car from the 50s running today isn’t just tightening a bolt here and there anymore. Even sourcing the parts is likely going to be non-trivial at this point.
You couldn’t pay me to switch to an EV.
